Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[BWitcher]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

 Does that tell you something that is not quite right ? the Gp series where it has evolved shows since it  was first started the scoring system has not always been right.

Like someone scoring 9-10 every qualifying round then 14/15 in the World Final and being World Champ. Another rider could have scored more in every other round. Who was the best rider that year?

Another tick in favor of the current system.

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, falcace said:

I think there is a lot of truth in that. 

Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix.

 Spot on with Sigalos ,,1983 Carter , Lee, Sigalos, Sanders were all in the mix and within a few years they had gone.With those riders about no way would Hans/Erik  have won seven titles between them yes they were great but fate did play some part and that is forgetting Penhall as well who only retired in 1982.

[Sidney the robin]

13 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Like someone scoring 9-10 every qualifying round then 14/15 in the World Final and being World Champ. Another rider could have scored more in every other round. Who was the best rider that year?

Another tick in favor of the current system.

Was the system fair when Loram won it ( who i liked very much )  and some of  Rick's early title wins.? the thing NOBODY can prove is what was the worth of the oppposition you were  up against.

[fatface]

4 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

Before Oxford moved up in 1984, Sigalos was my favourite of the top riders.  To me, Hans and Erik moved up a gear in 1983, moved up again in 1984, and moved up once more in 1985. I'm not sure if Dennis Sigalos would have been on quite the same level as the two Danes.

Well, you say that....

But he'd scored a maximum in the World Pairs, finished on a World Final rostrum, won the British Open in a run off v Nielsen (when it was a chunky £5k prize) and finished 1983 with a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen. Beyond the achievements, he was a really classy stylish rider who looked at home on tracks big and small. Sad to think his career was done at 24. I think he had a heck of a lot more to give were it not for a knackered ankle.

[lucifer sam]

18 minutes ago, falcace said:

Well, you say that....

But he'd scored a maximum in the World Pairs, finished on a World Final rostrum, won the British Open in a run off v Nielsen (when it was a chunky £5k prize) and finished 1983 with a 10.75 average, second only to Nielsen. Beyond the achievements, he was a really classy stylish rider who looked at home on tracks big and small. Sad to think his career was done at 24. I think he had a heck of a lot more to give were it not for a knackered ankle.

He still had a fantastic average in 1983, but Sigalos was less notable on the world stage that year. I was convinced he'd win at Norden, but he looked pretty ordinary in the mid-field.  He was still the rider I wanted Oxford to sign in 1984, when it was announced we had money to spend on top riders.  I was wrong there - Hans Nielsen was definitely the correct choice!

With hindsight and greater knowledge, I think the narrower tyres in 1983 hurt Sigalos and Les Collins the most. Maybe because they weren't quite so sharp out of the start. Sigalos had looked rather magnificent on the wide Carlisle tyre in 1982.  He and Schwartz looked untouchable in the World Pairs Final - I remember the hand signals and that kind of stuff during that meeting.  And yet they meekly surrendered that title in '83.  Erik and Hans also owned DS in the 1983 WTC - both beat him 2-0 in the comp.

Sigalos was a firm favourite of mine.  But I think the Danes were in front of him by the time of his injury.  And within a couple of years, the competition between Erik and Hans propelled them further forward. I'm not sure if Siggy would have broken that stranglehold, but it would have been interesting to find out.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by lucifer sam

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

Was the system fair when Loram won it ( who i liked very much )  and some of  Rick's early title wins.? the thing NOBODY can prove is what was the worth of the oppposition you were  up against.

The system was exciting but had flaws.

Most systems are usually fair as it's the same for everyone, but that one certainly wasn't with someone like Rickardsson being able to take four gate 1's (or whatever was advantageous).

[chunky]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

The system was exciting but had flaws.

Most systems are usually fair as it's the same for everyone, but that one certainly wasn't with someone like Rickardsson being able to take four gate 1's (or whatever was advantageous).

That's why it is laughable to see comments like "it's a lot easier to win a world title now", as if Woffinden has some kind of advantage. If it is easier for Tai, it is easier for everybody else. If it is tougher for Tai, it is tougher for everybody else. All the competitors in the same event pretty much go in with the same advantages and the same disadvantages, whatever system you use.

Steve

[Sidney the robin]

6 hours ago, BWitcher said:

The system was exciting but had flaws.

Most systems are usually fair as it's the same for everyone, but that one certainly wasn't with someone like Rickardsson being able to take four gate 1's (or whatever was advantageous).

But as you said the system now is near to perfect as you can get a level playing field for everyone.

[fatface]

12 hours ago, lucifer sam said:

He still had a fantastic average in 1983, but Sigalos was less notable on the world stage that year. I was convinced he'd win at Norden, but he looked pretty ordinary in the mid-field.  He was still the rider I wanted Oxford to sign in 1984, when it was announced we had money to spend on top riders.  I was wrong there - Hans Nielsen was definitely the correct choice!

With hindsight and greater knowledge, I think the narrower tyres in 1983 hurt Sigalos and Les Collins the most. Maybe because they weren't quite so sharp out of the start. Sigalos had looked rather magnificent on the wide Carlisle tyre in 1982.  He and Schwartz looked untouchable in the World Pairs Final - I remember the hand signals and that kind of stuff during that meeting.  And yet they meekly surrendered that title in '83.  Erik and Hans also owned DS in the 1983 WTC - both beat him 2-0 in the comp.

Sigalos was a firm favourite of mine.  But I think the Danes were in front of him by the time of his injury.  And within a couple of years, the competition between Erik and Hans propelled them further forward. I'm not sure if Siggy would have broken that stranglehold, but it would have been interesting to find out.

 

 

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

He was the same age as both Nielsen and Gundersen when his career abruptly ended, had achieved more than both to that point and was not yet at his peak. I certainly wouldn't bracket him with Les Collins, as much as I liked Les, his purple patch in the summer of 82 was very much a one-off. All ifs, buts and maybes, but I think there was ample evidence Siggy would have been at the very sharp end for a good time before his career came to a premature halt. 

[Sidney the robin]

14 minutes ago, falcace said:

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

He was the same age as both Nielsen and Gundersen when his career abruptly ended, had achieved more than both to that point and was not yet at his peak. I certainly wouldn't bracket him with Les Collins, as much as I liked Les, his purple patch in the summer of 82 was very much a one-off. All ifs, buts and maybes, but I think there was ample evidence Siggy would have been at the very sharp end for a good time before his career came to a premature halt. 

I was very disappointed with Siggy in the 1982 Final but as you said he had not reached his peak yet and should of had a decade in front of him.In Norden again i expected  Dennis to be right in the mix challenging Lee/ Muller  yet again he disappointed again. The ability was there to be a World Champion he was good anough but injury ruined that he was certainly a notch ahead of Les Collins in my opinion.

[steve roberts]

1 minute ago, Sidney the robin said:

I was very disappointed with Siggy in the 1982 Final but as you said he had not reached his peak yet and should of had a decade in front of him.In Norden again i expected  Dennis to be right in the mix challenging Lee/ Muller  yet again he disappointed again. The ability was there to be a World Champion he was good anough but injury ruined that he was certainly a notch ahead of Les Collins in my opinion.

I was at Norden also and he looked very ordinary that afternoon but, then again, Egon Muller made many look 'ordinary' that afternoon! Only Nielsen had the beating of him until a broken chain, if I recall, caused him to pull up otherwise he would have claimed third place (?) that afternoon in the German wilderness that was Norden.

[Gavan]

Surely this topic has been done to death.

Tai Woffinden is simply the best British rider there has ever been. Its not even up for discussion

Was he the most exciting to watch? No, PC , Morton, Carter, Lee and Loram were my favourite riders to watch and may have had more 'natural' talent but that doesnt equate to success.

A measure of who is the best has to go on success doesnt it.

Therefore my idea of the top British riders ever would be

1. Woffinden

2. Craven

3. Collins

4. Lee

5. Loram

6. Havelock

7. Price

8. Carter

9. Morton

10. Not sure maybe Jessup or Nicholls

 

[lucifer sam]

15 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Surely this topic has been done to death.

Tai Woffinden is simply the best British rider there has ever been. Its not even up for discussion

Was he the most exciting to watch? No, PC , Morton, Carter, Lee and Loram were my favourite riders to watch and may have had more 'natural' talent but that doesnt equate to success.

A measure of who is the best has to go on success doesnt it.

Therefore my idea of the top British riders ever would be

1. Woffinden

2. Craven

3. Collins

4. Lee

5. Loram

6. Havelock

7. Price

8. Carter

9. Morton

10. Not sure maybe Jessup or Nicholls

 

If you're going by success, it's strange you include a one-time World Champion Tommy Price, but not his immediate successor Freddie Williams, who was a two-time champion - indeed Williams is one of only three multiple British World Champions.

Surely Williams should be higher than Carter or Morton?

Edited March 13, 2019 by lucifer sam

[lucifer sam]

49 minutes ago, falcace said:

Well, I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

He was the same age as both Nielsen and Gundersen when his career abruptly ended, had achieved more than both to that point and was not yet at his peak. I certainly wouldn't bracket him with Les Collins, as much as I liked Les, his purple patch in the summer of 82 was very much a one-off. All ifs, buts and maybes, but I think there was ample evidence Siggy would have been at the very sharp end for a good time before his career came to a premature halt. 

In terms of Sigalos v Les Collins, I agree - Sigalos was definitely ahead. I was simply pointing out both slipped back a bit after the narrower tyres came in. 

Sigalos is the most interesting of the "What ifs" of the top riders ruled out during the 1980s, and perhaps the one who could have given Erik and Hans their hardest run for their money (although IMO they would have still been ahead - the signs are already there in '83).

Although not in 1984, because even had his ankle been OK after his American Final fall, Siggy was out of contention with just 4 points from 3 rides.

It is an interesting "What If"?

[Sidney the robin]

47 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Surely this topic has been done to death.

Tai Woffinden is simply the best British rider there has ever been. Its not even up for discussion

Was he the most exciting to watch? No, PC , Morton, Carter, Lee and Loram were my favourite riders to watch and may have had more 'natural' talent but that doesnt equate to success.

A measure of who is the best has to go on success doesnt it.

Therefore my idea of the top British riders ever would be

1. Woffinden

2. Craven

3. Collins

4. Lee

5. Loram

6. Havelock

7. Price

8. Carter

9. Morton

10. Not sure maybe Jessup or Nicholls

 

Price would have to be ahead of Loram/Havelock Gavan if you are going on the roll of honour??if not why no Farndon /Jack Parker/ Langton.? Freddie as well but he was Welsh.It is Impossible to compare to be honest , Lee is certainly the best English rider i have ever seen yet his record does not show it the facts dont lie and i hope Tai goes on and wins 7 titles.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Sidney the robin

[Midland Red]

41 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Surely this topic has been done to death.

Tai Woffinden is simply the best British rider there has ever been. Its not even up for discussion

Was he the most exciting to watch? No, PC , Morton, Carter, Lee and Loram were my favourite riders to watch and may have had more 'natural' talent but that doesnt equate to success.

A measure of who is the best has to go on success doesnt it.

Therefore my idea of the top British riders ever would be

1. Woffinden

2. Craven

3. Collins

4. Lee

5. Loram

6. Havelock

7. Price

8. Carter

9. Morton

10. Not sure maybe Jessup or Nicholls

 

Most successful does not equal best of all time

Woffinden better than Craven? No one knows - they never competed against each other or against the same opposition

Favourite rider =pure opinion (nothing wrong with that, everybody entitled)

Most successful = fact based on achievements

Best of all time = pure opinion, cannot be proven over 90 years of British racing

[Sidney the robin]

54 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

I was at Norden also and he looked very ordinary that afternoon but, then again, Egon Muller made many look 'ordinary' that afternoon! Only Nielsen had the beating of him until a broken chain, if I recall, caused him to pull up otherwise he would have claimed third place (?) that afternoon in the German wilderness that was Norden.

Got there at 6 in the morning and the weather was horrendous i thought the meeting was a certainty to be called off.The track i loved the shape but the racing did not hit the great heights it should of done.I went believing Lee would win but things were set up for Egon and he was a deserved winner. For the last 3 months of the 83 season Lee for me was the best rider in the world and to say that in a mega era with Nielsen, Gundersen,Sanders, Carter, Sigalos takes some doing.

[Gavan]

49 minutes ago, lucifer sam said:

If you're going by success, it's strange you include a one-time World Champion Tommy Price, but not his immediate successor Freddie Williams, who was a two-time champion - indeed Williams is one of only three multiple British World Champions.

Surely Williams should be higher than Carter or Morton?

Yes

Error on my part to miss Freddie

[Gavan]

21 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Most successful does not equal best of all time

Woffinden better than Craven? No one knows - they never competed against each other or against the same opposition

Favourite rider =pure opinion (nothing wrong with that, everybody entitled)

Most successful = fact based on achievements

Best of all time = pure opinion, cannot be proven over 90 years of British racing

Sadly Cravens career was cut short so he may have proved the better rider.

And yes i will say Woffinden was better than Craven

Its like some people believe Darcy was better than Tai...........he wasnt and sadly again we will never know if he could have been.

Its like judging snooker as an example.

Jimmy White and Alex Higgins were amazingly talented but not as good as Davis or Hendry.

And so as good as someone like PC was , he isnt as good as Tai.

My favourite British rider ever was Mark Loram............so much better to watch than Tai..........but im not daft enough to think he was the better rider

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Gavan

[rjsj9803]

Tai might be the best I see maybe 10 to 15 times a week on television a year, but personally that puts him behind Collins, Loram, Lee etc who many of us watched weekly in the flesh.