customhouseregular Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Injury in a qualifying round could mean not reaching the final. A fall or engine failure in a rider's first heat of the final could end his title hopes. Misfortune could play a big part. Once in the GP series a rider has 10 chances. He can miss a round through injury or not win a single GP and still win the title. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, customhouseregular said: Injury in a qualifying round could mean not reaching the final. A fall or engine failure in a rider's first heat of the final could end his title hopes. Misfortune could play a big part. Once in the GP series a rider has 10 chances. He can miss a round through injury or not win a single GP and still win the title. You could easily flip that to say that an injury to a rider can give a lesser rider a greater chance of winning, thus making it easier to win a one-off final if you are not the best in the World. Edited March 12, 2019 by Grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 26 minutes ago, lucifer sam said: That too, although I do think he missed riding in the UK at a time most of his rivals were. Still, he’d been over here for 18 years and wanted to return home to raise his young family. I don’t think Hamill would have got near Nielsen in his prime. The only man capable of beating Hans at his prime was Erik. As much as I loved the old one-off World Final, it would have been very interesting to see those two going hammer-and-tong over a full season. Naturally, I’m biased towards Hans and think he would have won most of the championships under a GP system (whatever the format), but I also recognise it wouldn’t have been a complete shoe-in. I also think that, paradoxically, it’s Erik’s accident that cost Hans more titles than Erik. Hans was on top at the time of Erik’s accident, having won three out of the last four championships, but he lost his edge after Erik got hurt. Maybe it was only 1-2% of his overall performance. But, as Woffy said the other week when I went to see him in the talk at Scunny, at the top level 1% or 0.5% can be everything. I think there is a lot of truth in that. Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one of clubs Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Nothing to do with being arsed though was it? He was in dispute (not the first) with the governing body about professionalism and trying to win. Thankfully they saw that he was right in the end. I don’t particularly agree with him missing British Finals but on the whole he is top class and yes the best we have ever had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, one of clubs said: Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way. Ivan Mauger missed riding for New Zealand for four successive seasons in the World Team Cup. He came back into the competition in 1979 in great style, inspiring his team-mates to win the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 47 minutes ago, falcace said: I think there is a lot of truth in that. Of the list I gave above earlier of those lost to the sport prematurely, the biggest imponderable is Dennis Sigalos. By 1983, I'd have had him, Nielsen and - for one final season - Lee as the world's best riders. But he never did get the chance to capitalise on his talent. From 84-89, Erik and Hans were undisputable 1 and 2. But I reckon a fit Sigalos would have been right in the mix. Before Oxford moved up in 1984, Sigalos was my favourite of the top riders. To me, Hans and Erik moved up a gear in 1983, moved up again in 1984, and moved up once more in 1985. I'm not sure if Dennis Sigalos would have been on quite the same level as the two Danes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, one of clubs said: Tai three individual world titles to his name. That is it. Nothing more at all to speak of. Could not be arsed to turn out for his country. Best ever?, no way. Three World Championships, plus a second and a third. More than any other British rider. In a six year period. A superb performance in the Speedway of Nations final. Far more impressive than PC's three WTC maximums against largely inferior opponents. I'm so sorry Tai didn't win the Internationale, Brandonapolis, Superama, Yorkshire TV Trophy, Golden Hammer etc... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Milankovitch said: Michael Lee is the best British rider ever imho ... A candidate, certainly. However, it is difficult to prove when a rider doesn't have the titles, and greatest potential/natural ability doesn't mean the best. I am sure some will feel that Kenny Carter was the best. Supremely talented, but never made a World Final Rostrum. Same with Joe Screen. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, lucifer sam said: Ivan Mauger missed riding for New Zealand for four successive seasons in the World Team Cup. He came back into the competition in 1979 in great style, inspiring his team-mates to win the competition. Didn't Nielsen refuse to ride for Denmark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, chunky said: Didn't Nielsen refuse to ride for Denmark? Ole Olsen who was manager of Denmark due to a 'confict of interests'. Erik Gundersen after he was forced to retire admitted that there were problems and it wasn't right that Olsen was Erik's personal advisor/manager and also team manager of the national side thereby causing diversions. The incident that readily comes to mind was the occasion that Hans and Erik were chosen as Pairs partners for Denmark but Olsen decread that he and Erik were in a different hotel to Hans. Edited March 12, 2019 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 A number of riders have had disagreements.Wiggy I think entered the world championships through the continental rounds rather than the British rounds when riding on a foreign license Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, iris123 said: A number of riders have had disagreements.Wiggy I think entered the world championships through the continental rounds rather than the British rounds when riding on a foreign license He took out a Dutch License and I remember Marvyn Cox riding under German license. I think Andy Smith had a Polish one at one time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, steve roberts said: He took out a Dutch License and I remember Marvyn Cox riding under German license. I think Andy Smith had a Polish one at one time? Plus I think a number of Russians have refused to ride in recent times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 I wouldn't necessarily say Tai is the best British rider ever... But I'd definitely put him in the Top One... (Apologies to Brian Clough)... 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, mikebv said: I wouldn't necessarily say Tai is the best British rider ever... But I'd definitely put him in the Top One... (Apologies to Brian Clough)... I would certainly class him as better than that clown Tomaszewski... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one of clubs Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 44 minutes ago, chunky said: Three World Championships, plus a second and a third. More than any other British rider. In a six year period. A superb performance in the Speedway of Nations final. Far more impressive than PC's three WTC maximums against largely inferior opponents. I'm so sorry Tai didn't win the Internationale, Brandonapolis, Superama, Yorkshire TV Trophy, Golden Hammer etc... Steve Yes, three WTC winning maximums,equalling Tai's three individual. As we all know, one can only beat what is put in front you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Just now, one of clubs said: Yes, three WTC winning maximums,equalling Tai's three individual. As we all know, one can only beat what is put in front you. And Tai has done that more often. Thanks for clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, chunky said: Didn't Nielsen refuse to ride for Denmark? 29 minutes ago, steve roberts said: Ole Olsen who was manager of Denmark due to a 'confict of interests'. Erik Gundersen after he was forced to retire admitted that there were problems and it wasn't right that Olsen was Erik's personal advisor/manager and also team manager of the national side thereby causing diversions. The incident that readily comes to mind was the occasion that Hans and Erik were chosen as Pairs partners for Denmark but Olsen decread that he and Erik were in a different hotel to Hans. Although it should be pointed out that Nielsen and Olsen agreed a truce to allow Nielsen to ride in the 1985 World Team Cup Final in the USA. That's the thing - the Danes would argue amongst themselves, but always pulled together when they needed to. They wouldn't let it stopping them winning Gold Medals! Edited March 12, 2019 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Grachan said: Oh, definitely. But to win the meeting you had to win the final. It didn't matter how well you did in the other races as long as you stayed in. A Nielsen/Gundersen final was by no means a cert for Hans, even if Erik had to go through eliminators to get there. For example, Nielsen gets through every ride with a first or second. Gundersen has a bad night, scrapes through an eliminator due to another rider being excluded. Makes the final. Wins it. Gundersen gets more GP points the Nielsen. Does that tell you something that is not quite right ? the Gp series where it has evolved shows since it was first started the scoring system has not always been right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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