chunky Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Barney Rabbit said: I've stated a rider can become World Champion without winning a meeting which is a point against GPs (in my opinion) I've also said a rider can win a meeting without scoring most points which again, is a point against the GP system (in my opinion) In the older system a rider had to score most points (or equal most and win a run-off) to win the meeting to win the Championship. So could not win a meeting by scoring fewer points than a rival (as Tai did today) at the meeting so could not be Champion without winning a meeting. Where's the contradiction? The idea of a GP system us to score the most points. Tai scored more than anyone else. This also applies in most other motorsports. Yes, a rider CAN win a meeting without scoring the most points. Yes, that is an anomaly. However, a team can be league champions without winning the most matches/scoring the most points. A rider still has to score most points (or equal most and win a run-off)to win the Championship. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Barney Rabbit said: I've stated a rider can become World Champion without winning a meeting which is a point against GPs (in my opinion) I've also said a rider can win a meeting without scoring most points which again, is a point against the GP system (in my opinion) In the older system a rider had to score most points (or equal most and win a run-off) to win the meeting to win the Championship. So could not win a meeting by scoring fewer points than a rival (as Tai did today) at the meeting so could not be Champion without winning a meeting. Where's the contradiction? In the old system a rider can be outscored in all rounds heavily, yet still end up World Champion. Two riders starting out in Commonwealth final. Rider A scores 15 Rider B 6 (you could get through that with 6pts many times) Next round, Overseas Rider A scores 15 Rider B 8 Next round, InterContinental Rider A scores 15 Rider B scores 6 (again you could get through with such a low score often) Final Rider A scores 14 (puncture of final bend for example) Rider B 15. Rider A scored 59pts Rider B 35pts.. yet Rider B is World Champion.. So by your own logic, it's not a point against the GP at all... it's massively points against the old system. There is simply no comparison, the GP is a far better system and is far more reliant on the skill and ability of a rider than luck. The old final had the drama of it being on one night... that's it. Edited October 7, 2018 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) having seen both gps and old style world championship, its old style for me everytime..(my choice) my reasons are you had the drama of the one night final, but you got to see a variation of riders along the way...im simply bored with a closed shop of riders every round, then as sometimes happens, the same riders get given the wildcard...add on top of that indoor speedway, no thanks Edited October 7, 2018 by ColinMills 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: In the old system a rider can be outscored in all rounds heavily, yet still end up World Champion. Two riders starting out in Commonwealth final. Rider A scores 15 Rider B 6 (you could get through that with 6pts many times) Next round, Overseas Rider A scores 15 Rider B 8 Next round, InterContinental Rider A scores 15 Rider B scores 6 (again you could get through with such a low score often) Final Rider A scores 14 (puncture of final bend for example) Rider B 15. Rider A scored 59pts Rider B 35pts.. yet Rider B is World Champion.. So by your own logic, it's not a point against the GP at all... it's massively points against the old system. There is simply no comparison, the GP is a far better system and is far more reliant on the skill and ability of a rider than luck. The old final had the drama of it being on one night... that's it. And how many meetings and rides did Szczakiel need to become World Champion? And how many meetings and rides did Michanek need to become World Champion? Don't forget the home-track advantage for Van Praag, Price, and Williams... To win a GP series, you really have to earn it, and you don't lose it because of a single minor e/f... I love the way people complain about the top 8 qualifying for the next year's series, but it was okay for the top 11 to qualify from the Inter-Continental Final... Steve 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, ColinMills said: having seen both gps and old style world championship, its old style for me everytime..(my choice) my reasons are you had the drama of the one night final, but you got to see a variation of riders along the way...im simply bored with a closed shop of riders every round, then as sometimes happens, the same riders get given the wildcard...add on top of that indoor speedway, no thanks What about the THREE nights of drama we have had since Tai's exclusion in Krsko??? Of course, it is so tedious to sit through all those nights with Woffinden, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Pedersen, Lindgren, Janowski... Steve Edited October 7, 2018 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 4 hours ago, BWitcher said: In the old system a rider can be outscored in all rounds heavily, yet still end up World Champion. Two riders starting out in Commonwealth final. Rider A scores 15 Rider B 6 (you could get through that with 6pts many times) Next round, Overseas Rider A scores 15 Rider B 8 Next round, InterContinental Rider A scores 15 Rider B scores 6 (again you could get through with such a low score often) Final Rider A scores 14 (puncture of final bend for example) Rider B 15. Rider A scored 59pts Rider B 35pts.. yet Rider B is World Champion.. So by your own logic, it's not a point against the GP at all... it's massively points against the old system. There is simply no comparison, the GP is a far better system and is far more reliant on the skill and ability of a rider than luck. The old final had the drama of it being on one night... that's it. And five 'eastern bloc' riders were given places which invariably meant, on most occasions, places 12 - 16 were sorted as they were not of the same standard as the other riders on show... In fact, they were not of the same standard of tens of riders who hadn't been able to qualify for the Final... Another flaw was that several riders, once they qualified, would basically give up their positions in races so they could get the (already decided) start number they wanted for the next round, with which to gain the gate positions they wanted.. Add in the many times riders who couldn't qualify would stay out of a race (but get paid a win by those who did need points) and the contrived way riders from the same nation carved up certain races to gain qualification, and you could argue the 'worlds best' were not always on show with 'everything on the line' like the GP brings.. Being in the top eight seems to be a huge prize which ensures all riders keep focused and driven to deliver their best... You top the table at the end of a GP season and you truly are the best rider in the world.. Not just the best on one night... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Wow, BBC Breakfast just showed a brief clip and interview of Woffinden from last night. That has to be progress. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 6 hours ago, ColinMills said: having seen both gps and old style world championship, its old style for me everytime..(my choice) my reasons are you had the drama of the one night final, but you got to see a variation of riders along the way...im simply bored with a closed shop of riders every round, then as sometimes happens, the same riders get given the wildcard...add on top of that indoor speedway, no thanks I get what you say about the closed shop, maybe it's time to cut the quali roll over to 5 places? But surely you can't say that last night wasn't dramatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 23 hours ago, one of clubs said: I cannot believe what I am reading here. Peter Collins, despite what some people believe, is still the best British racer ever. Apart from a potential three individual world honours, what else has Tai won?. Zero. At times, he could not even be bothered to represent his country. I find that inexcusable. That's your opinion but please tell us what Peter Collins has won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlivefrankie Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) The current world individual championship medal table reads for british riders tai woffinden 10th 3-1-1 freddie williams 13th 2-1-0 peter craven 14th 2-0-2 peter Collins 24th 1-1-0 Edited October 7, 2018 by longlivefrankie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: In the old system a rider can be outscored in all rounds heavily, yet still end up World Champion. Two riders starting out in Commonwealth final. Rider A scores 15 Rider B 6 (you could get through that with 6pts many times) Next round, Overseas Rider A scores 15 Rider B 8 Next round, InterContinental Rider A scores 15 Rider B scores 6 (again you could get through with such a low score often) Final Rider A scores 14 (puncture of final bend for example) Rider B 15. Rider A scored 59pts Rider B 35pts.. yet Rider B is World Champion.. So by your own logic, it's not a point against the GP at all... it's massively points against the old system. There is simply no comparison, the GP is a far better system and is far more reliant on the skill and ability of a rider than luck. The old final had the drama of it being on one night... that's it. But he has to at least win one meeting - the final. Now it's possible for a rider to be champion at every GP but still not win the World Championship. Highly improbable agreed, but possible. So, in the old system, a rider has to win that last meeting to be WC. In the new system, a rider can win all the meetings and not be WC. One is undisputed fact, the other an improbability. Edited October 7, 2018 by Barney Rabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: But he has to at least win one meeting - the final. Now it's possible for a rider to be champion at every GP but still not win the World Championship. Highly improbable agreed, but possible. So, in the old system, a rider has to win that last meeting to be WC. In the new system, a rider can win all the meetings and not be WC. One is undisputed fact, the other an improbability. One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 The GP finds the best, most consistent rider over the course of a season on a variety of tracks and in varying conditions, I can't see a better way of producing a true World Champion. Some of the old World Finals were great and dramatic but everybody forgets those that were crap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, BWitcher said: One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. I prefer the cut-and-thrust of a one-night event, get it wrong and you lose, if your bike packs up, tough, man and machine are a unit in the sport we used to have, to the 'oh well, I've ten other goes to get it right' competition we have now. That's a no brainer. We both have differing opinions, not wrong ones. Edited October 7, 2018 by Barney Rabbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, BWitcher said: One gives you the best rider in the world or at the very least very, very close to it every single time. The other allows a random winner who is nowhere near the best rider in the world to win.. as has happened numerous times. It's a no brainer. Since 1954, Only two riders were imo shock winners. Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Mullier. Who else would you say were no where near the best rider to win it from 54? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, Vince said: The GP finds the best, most consistent rider over the course of a season on a variety of tracks and in varying conditions, I can't see a better way of producing a true World Champion. Some of the old World Finals were great and dramatic but everybody forgets those that were crap. There has been enough GP's over the years that would fall into that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Daniel Smith said: That's your opinion but please tell us what Peter Collins has won? I more relevant question would. What hasn't he won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, tyler42 said: I more relevant question would. What hasn't he won? Three individual World titles Edited October 7, 2018 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, tyler42 said: Since 1954, Only two riders were imo shock winners. Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Mullier. Who else would you say were no where near the best rider to win it from 54? No way was Egon Muller a shock winner. I went to that meeting, and beforehand pretty much everyone on our coach thought he might win. He might not have won it on a Grand Prix system, but on a one-off in Germany he was one of the favourites. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 7, 2018 Report Share Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, Grachan said: No way was Egon Muller a shock winner. I went to that meeting, and beforehand pretty much everyone on our coach thought he might win. He might not have won it on a Grand Prix system, but on a one-off in Germany he was one of the favourites. He was even picked out by Briggo before the season started as a big favorite to win.And I have a 1972 season review that picks Jerzy as a dark horseto win the 1973 title,so neither was such a surprise as people today seem to think Fact is though neither would really have been a favorite over a GP season.Egon might well be up there as a contender for a medal.A certainty to get in the top 8 I would say 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.