Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[WalterPlinge]

4 minutes ago, geoff100 said:

Peter collins chris morton , jessup , mike lee

 

Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined.    So your statement is a bit of a nonsense.   

[bigcatdiary]

12 minutes ago, WalterPlinge said:

Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined.    So your statement is a bit of a nonsense.   

Makes a good argument

[geoff100]

30 minutes ago, WalterPlinge said:

Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined.    So your statement is a bit of a nonsense.   

No it aint i quoted tai saying he was the " greatest" british rider the fact he has 3 titles is nothing i just think others have been better 

[WalterPlinge]

17 minutes ago, geoff100 said:

 the fact he has 3 titles is nothing 

Probably your silliest quote so far.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

1 hour ago, geoff100 said:

Peter collins chris morton , jessup , mike lee, i could go on it has never been easier to become world champion u get 10 go,s a season and u dont need to win a final  grand prix race to win the title, how would mr superstar have managed in a good old one night final.anyway dont need to bother with him now having won it 3 times he wont compete so someone else can have a go!

You ask how Tai would get on with a one night final - Given that he has won GPs and also topped the qualifier heats at GPs a number of times I would say he wouldve been just fine

Interesting you use this as a yardstick yet claim Morton and Jessup who dudnr manage one off wins as better..... 

[geoff100]

13 minutes ago, WalterPlinge said:

Probably your silliest quote so far.

Lots where that came from !

[Midland Red]

5 hours ago, teaboy279 said:

But records will always so that he is, he is the only 3 time world champion. That's a fact. Any other form of measurement is pure opinion.

But the records do not show the standard of the opposition

So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras

Woffinden, most successful? Probably

Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely 

[BWitcher]

20 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

But the records do not show the standard of the opposition

So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras

Woffinden, most successful? Probably

Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely 

You're correct. 

The GP fields are a lot tougher. 

 

[Midland Red]

8 hours ago, BWitcher said:

You're correct. 

The GP fields are a lot tougher. 

 

A lot tougher than what?  One just doesn't know

How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days?

One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven

Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more

[Midland Red]

24 minutes ago, Richard Weston said:

Best of all time – the statistics prove it.

The final arbiter is what you have won: Tai has three, no-one else has.

Therefore, TW is the best Brit of all time.

No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories

That's not the same as best of all time

[Hodgy]

7 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories

That's not the same as best of all time

What is? 

[Grachan]

2 hours ago, Midland Red said:

A lot tougher than what?  One just doesn't know

How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days?

One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven

Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more

 

Tougher than individual final line ups.

Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World.

Individual finals didn't.

For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting.

Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers.

[Midland Red]

41 minutes ago, Hodgy said:

What is? 

Anybody's / everybody's opinion

There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition

Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful

 

As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23)

The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider

The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner

 

[chunky]

1 hour ago, Midland Red said:

Anybody's / everybody's opinion

There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition

Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful

 

As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23)

The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider

The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner

 

Winning a single GP is very different from winning a GP series over a whole season.  Yes, there are anomalies within a GP system - as there are within most, if not all systems - but in order to become World Champion, a rider has to perform at a consistently high level.  

With the old World Finals, a rider could have one lucky night, and become World Champion. A rider could become World Champion after a small handful of meetings, only one or two of which would come close to including the majority of the "top 16" riders in the world.

Steve

[chunky]

In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders.

Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names.

Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings?  Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself

Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship.

Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night.

Steve

Edited March 12, 2019 by chunky

[Sidney the robin]

4 hours ago, chunky said:

In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders.

Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names.

Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings?  Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself

Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship.

Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night.

Steve

The USA final was always a tough meeting ask the likes of Bobby Schwartz who suffered as badly as most over the years.Tai i like and he will probably go on and win more titles but for me the GP series is a different discipline to the old one off finals.My opinion is Ivan Mauger winning  his six titles was harder than Tony Rickardsson winning his just an opinion though.

[Sidney the robin]

9 hours ago, Midland Red said:

No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories

That's not the same as best of all time

Peter Craven is a rider that i never see ride but for his untimely death he would of certainly won more titles also he was in a real tough era to.Tai is a rider i never really liked but he has won me over over the years and deserves every accolade he recieves.As you said everyone rode against different opposition so it is difficult to make a choice.All i would say is Lee/ Collins at there best are in the same bracket as Tai and Craven certainly is.

[waytogo28]

Simply the Best British rider for me. Tai Woffinden. Go on to rack up 7 world titles Tai. That should bring a few more round to his outstanding ability.  Coming pretty near to Tai is my first speedway hero - Ove Fundin. But yes, comparing different eras is just about impossible.

[steve roberts]

10 hours ago, Grachan said:

 

Tougher than individual final line ups.

Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World.

Individual finals didn't.

For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting.

Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers.

Wasn't always the case during its formative conception.

[iris123]

26 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Wasn't always the case during its formative conception.

But it doesn’t really matter that much.The year before TRick met some of his main rivals only once (Boyce) or twice (Hancock) . A year later and Hans had to meet all his main rivals 6 times....at least !!! Checked and Hans met TRick 9 times and Sam 7 in the first GP season.

Edited March 12, 2019 by iris123