WalterPlinge Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:28 AM, geoff100 said: Peter collins chris morton , jessup , mike lee Expand Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined. So your statement is a bit of a nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:33 AM, WalterPlinge said: Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined. So your statement is a bit of a nonsense. Expand Makes a good argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff100 Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:33 AM, WalterPlinge said: Woffinden has more world titles than those 4 combined. So your statement is a bit of a nonsense. Expand No it aint i quoted tai saying he was the " greatest" british rider the fact he has 3 titles is nothing i just think others have been better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterPlinge Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 10:06 AM, geoff100 said: the fact he has 3 titles is nothing Expand Probably your silliest quote so far. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:28 AM, geoff100 said: Peter collins chris morton , jessup , mike lee, i could go on it has never been easier to become world champion u get 10 go,s a season and u dont need to win a final grand prix race to win the title, how would mr superstar have managed in a good old one night final.anyway dont need to bother with him now having won it 3 times he wont compete so someone else can have a go! Expand You ask how Tai would get on with a one night final - Given that he has won GPs and also topped the qualifier heats at GPs a number of times I would say he wouldve been just fine Interesting you use this as a yardstick yet claim Morton and Jessup who dudnr manage one off wins as better..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff100 Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 10:24 AM, WalterPlinge said: Probably your silliest quote so far. Expand Lots where that came from ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 4:54 AM, teaboy279 said: But records will always so that he is, he is the only 3 time world champion. That's a fact. Any other form of measurement is pure opinion. Expand But the records do not show the standard of the opposition So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras Woffinden, most successful? Probably Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 10:52 AM, Midland Red said: But the records do not show the standard of the opposition So it's never a level playing field when comparing riders from different eras Woffinden, most successful? Probably Best of all time? Possibly but not definitely Expand You're correct. The GP fields are a lot tougher. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 11:14 AM, BWitcher said: You're correct. The GP fields are a lot tougher. Expand A lot tougher than what? One just doesn't know How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days? One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:06 PM, Richard Weston said: Best of all time – the statistics prove it. The final arbiter is what you have won: Tai has three, no-one else has. Therefore, TW is the best Brit of all time. Expand No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:33 PM, Midland Red said: No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time Expand What is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 8:03 PM, Midland Red said: A lot tougher than what? One just doesn't know How can anyone say a GP field in 2018 was tougher than the opposition the Farndons, Parkers, Prices, Cravens, etc had to face in their days? One just doesn't know - one can surmise, make all kinds of assertions, but they cannot be proven Successful in his era, yes - best of all time, possible, but nothing more Expand Tougher than individual final line ups. Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World. Individual finals didn't. For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting. Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:49 PM, Hodgy said: What is? Expand Anybody's / everybody's opinion There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23) The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 10:40 PM, Midland Red said: Anybody's / everybody's opinion There's no way of proving who's the best over 90 years of racing - they've all ridden against different opposition Tai's clearly one of the most successful, if not the most successful As an aside - another discussion that's been argued elsewhere - a GP winner nowadays is not the best rider of the event but just the winner of one race (heat 23) The best rider is the highest points scorer in the 20 heats where every rider has raced against every other rider The eighth best rider can then go on to become GP winner Expand Winning a single GP is very different from winning a GP series over a whole season. Yes, there are anomalies within a GP system - as there are within most, if not all systems - but in order to become World Champion, a rider has to perform at a consistently high level. With the old World Finals, a rider could have one lucky night, and become World Champion. A rider could become World Champion after a small handful of meetings, only one or two of which would come close to including the majority of the "top 16" riders in the world. Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders. Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names. Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings? Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship. Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night. Steve Edited March 12, 2019 by chunky 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/12/2019 at 12:20 AM, chunky said: In 1978, Ole Olsen became World Champion after just 15 rides, and the Scandinavian Final lineup wasn't exactly chock full of World Class riders. Gordon Kennett took second after competing in six meetings, but the three British Qualifying Rounds, while not easy, didn't feature all the world's top names. Scott Autrey was third, after how many meetings? Probably just the American Final (which wasn't that tough back then), the I-C Final, and then the World Final itself Of these three, neither Olsen nor Autrey had to face Peter Collins, and the pair only had to face Lee, Jessup, and Simmons in just two races during the entire championship. Compare that to Woffinden facing Janowski, Zmarzlik, Doyle, Hancock etc every two weeks, sometimes two or three times in one night. Steve Expand The USA final was always a tough meeting ask the likes of Bobby Schwartz who suffered as badly as most over the years.Tai i like and he will probably go on and win more titles but for me the GP series is a different discipline to the old one off finals.My opinion is Ivan Mauger winning his six titles was harder than Tony Rickardsson winning his just an opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 9:33 PM, Midland Red said: No, they prove he's the most successful in terms of World Championship victories That's not the same as best of all time Expand Peter Craven is a rider that i never see ride but for his untimely death he would of certainly won more titles also he was in a real tough era to.Tai is a rider i never really liked but he has won me over over the years and deserves every accolade he recieves.As you said everyone rode against different opposition so it is difficult to make a choice.All i would say is Lee/ Collins at there best are in the same bracket as Tai and Craven certainly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 Simply the Best British rider for me. Tai Woffinden. Go on to rack up 7 world titles Tai. That should bring a few more round to his outstanding ability. Coming pretty near to Tai is my first speedway hero - Ove Fundin. But yes, comparing different eras is just about impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 10:02 PM, Grachan said: Tougher than individual final line ups. Grand Prix meetings pretty much consist of the best 16 riders in the World. Individual finals didn't. For example, nobody would say that Peter Collins wasn't a deserving champion in 1976, but the top 2 riders in the World from the previous season weren't in the meeting. Of course, you could argue that it was because qualification was more difficult, but as meetings themselves, the GPs have stronger line ups. World finals also always had 4 or 5 fillers. Expand Wasn't always the case during its formative conception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) On 3/12/2019 at 8:35 AM, steve roberts said: Wasn't always the case during its formative conception. Expand But it doesn’t really matter that much.The year before TRick met some of his main rivals only once (Boyce) or twice (Hancock) . A year later and Hans had to meet all his main rivals 6 times....at least !!! Checked and Hans met TRick 9 times and Sam 7 in the first GP season. Edited March 12, 2019 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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