Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[MARK246]

6 hours ago, chunky said:

 

I thought PC aquited himself quite well when he was on the superstars tv program, perhaps that is selective memory again.

[chunky]

23 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

I thought PC aquited himself quite well when he was on the superstars tv program, perhaps that is selective memory again.

I think ALL speedway riders did. A lot of people don't realise how fit motorsports competitors are, and while it is not about how fast they can run or how high they can jump, speedway riders in particular have plenty of upper body strength and stamina.

The only problem I recall was with Michanek in the weightlifting; he is round-shouldered, and was physically unable to lock his arms to the desired position!

Steve

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, chunky said:

I wonder how much his lifestyle and dedication (or lack thereof) contributed to not only a lack of real top-level success, but also to such a short career at that level. Chris can certainly be classed as an under-achiever when you consider his talent, and he should definitely have been around for longer than he was.

Steve

Apparently Chris was very badly affected by Alan Wilkinson's very cruel injury and he was never the same rider again...although I remember he put in a superlative performance with Weymouth at Cowley!

[g13webb]

4 hours ago, g13webb said:

That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes.   Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport,  Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions  'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that  gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by.   Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points..   Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval,  he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one.  and that's going to cost the fans more money...  

By the time Lee started back in '75,   4 valvers were in full swing.     The 2 valves died an instant death...       Jawa,  Weslakes and  GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today.    Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few  that had works machinery….

Going back to that night against Newport, brings back some wonderful memories.  Everybody in the pits was buzzing about those two bikes.   all gathering around to look at this new idea.  Phil's engine was complete, but Niels  had  the top rocker cover held together with plastic tape...   Apparently he hadn't had the time to finish making them but wanted to try them out at Lynn meeting.     I one lasting memory of that night was seeing  Andy Lee ,  who had accompanied Michael to those interval practice sessions,  talking with Neil Street about the technology involved with the bike. They were going on about , dwell angle,  pitch centres,  advance timing,     They were both so wrapped up in details and ideas,  they both looked so happy and,  to some, looked as though they were on drugs.  they were oblivious of everyone.      Wish I had taken a picture of those 2 men so wrapped up in this new idea.      Brilliant memories....  

4 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

If only the privileged few had works machinery - how does this correlate with claims tgat Tai only wins because he had fast bikes. Which all riders have.

When in the 70s it was only your Maugers, Olsen and Collins...

I never made that comment .  I have never run Woffy down and believe he could be one of the all time greats.    What I did say  was that the machinery is more important now than it ever was in the past,   meaning you need a fast bike just to be competitive.      If you want to twist that round  to suit your argument then so it..     But don't make out I said it....

[Hodgy]

21 hours ago, BWitcher said:

There is no sensible response when someone is talking nonsense. To try and claim that Woffiden has never left World class riders trailing is simply sheer lunacy.

You may tolerate idiocy, I don't. 

 

Of course there is and it was within your post but overlooked with the unnecessary, usual, ‘idiot talking nonsense’ repetitive insults. We all have our tolerance level and breaking point (we’ve all been there on this forum) but you attack anyone that doesn’t agree with you. 

Your fellow poster, Waiheke1, posts very similar opinions and facts as you (and I for that matter). Makes the point, without the need to be so aggressive and rude. 

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, g13webb said:

Going back to that night against Newport, brings back some wonderful memories.  Everybody in the pits was buzzing about those two bikes.   all gathering around to look at this new idea.  Phil's engine was complete, but Niels  had  the top rocker cover held together with plastic tape...   Apparently he hadn't had the time to finish making them but wanted to try them out at Lynn meeting.     I one lasting memory of that night was seeing  Andy Lee ,  who had accompanied Michael to those interval practice sessions,  talking with Neil Street about the technology involved with the bike. They were going on about , dwell angle,  pitch centres,  advance timing,     They were both so wrapped up in details and ideas,  they both looked so happy and,  to some, looked as though they were on drugs.  they were oblivious of everyone.      Wish I had taken a picture of those 2 men so wrapped up in this new idea.      Brilliant memories....  

I never made that comment .  I have never run Woffy down and believe he could be one of the all time greats.    What I did say  was that the machinery is more important now than it ever was in the past,   meaning you need a fast bike just to be competitive.      If you want to twist that round  to suit your argument then so it..     But don't make out I said it....

Remember Phil riding at Oxford in 1974 for Newport on his 'Street Conversion' and he smashed the track record which had stood for years. Neil Street had been a very able rider for many years and riding his own '4 valve' engine gave him a new, albeit temporary, lease of life. Whether the introduction of the '4 Valve' was a good thing is purely down to opinion but many riders at the time were very concerned regarding its conception and the extra costs involved. The rest, as they say, is history.

[MARK246]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Remember Phil riding at Oxford in 1974 for Newport on his 'Street Conversion' and he smashed the track record which had stood for years. Neil Street had been a very able rider for many years and riding his own '4 valve' engine gave him a new, albeit temporary, lease of life. Whether the introduction of the '4 Valve' was a good thing is purely down to opinion but many riders at the time were very concerned regarding its conception and the extra costs involved. The rest, as they say, is history.

The 4 valve concept was not a new idea, the 1930's ? Rudge engines had 4 valves. I wonder if the pre-war riders worried about the costs changing to the two valve J.A.P's

[g13webb]

Strange that !!   when my dad was in the Metropolitan  Police, back in the early 40's , he said he use to ride a old Rudge with 4 valves   I thought he was probably romancing,   trying to compare his old steed  to todays bikes...   He would say they were very heavy and needed someone to help when they fell over,  but the engines were still quite quick...… 

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, g13webb said:

Strange that !!   when my dad was in the Metropolitan  Police, back in the early 40's , he said he use to ride a old Rudge with 4 valves   I thought he was probably romancing,   trying to compare his old steed  to todays bikes...   He would say they were very heavy and needed someone to help when they fell over,  but the engines were still quite quick...… 

Yes when your see images of old Rudges and Douglas they are certainly very different to modern lightweight machines which is one reason why it's very difficult to compare different eras in my view whereby different techniques and/or styles are required and on very different track surfaces.

[orion]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 6:17 PM, Fred Flange said:

This woffinden thread probably wouldn't have started had he not been world champion this season, which sort of suggests that the claim that he is the best British rider is based largely on his three titles, ie one more than any other Brit. I happen to think that arguing about riders from different eras is futile but it does seem popular, lol!

I doubt this thread would have seen the light of day had Ward still been riding though, who, in my opinion, was the best rider I'd seen since PC (when aces51 said he'd not seen woffinden do stuff on a bike that he had seen PC do, I knew exactly what he meant because I was probably there and watched PC when he did it as well). When Ward got injured not only did it take him out of the running but Holder has never been the same since Ward's injury. The two riders who were arguably better than woffinden were no longer in his way.

I think Ward and Holder would have at least been woffinden's biggest challengers, if not the actual dominant force, they would have also probably still been the main riders for monster which may have also had a negative effect on woffindens chances.

Right place at the right time? Well it works for some and not for others, Jack Parker might say so anyway.

 

Ward no doubt had  the talent but because of his lack of brain power I doubt  he would have able to hold himself together to win a Gp Series ...one of woffy skills is how plots  his way round the series risk free  picking up enough points to win overall .

As for Holder never been a fan of his and I rate him as one worst World Champions 

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, orion said:

Ward no doubt had  the talent but because of his lack of brain power I doubt  he would have able to hold himself together to win a Gp Series ...one of woffy skills is how plots  his way round the series risk free  picking up enough points to win overall .

As for Holder never been a fan of his and I rate him as one worst World Champions 

I obviously never saw Darcy Ward ride but am unfortunately prejudice towards him based upon the negative press that he attracted thru' his off track activities despite his apparent talent on track.

[IainB]

And to suggest that Holder is better than Woffinden but no longer in his way because of Wards terrible injury is ridiculous. Woffinden was also no doubt effected, as were many others, but had the mental strength to carry on and manage his mind in pursuit of his goals, unlike Holder, whether Wards injury effected him that much is obviously just an opinion.

This in my mind just makes Woffy better than Holder, as the record books will testify

Edited October 25, 2018 by iainb

[Vince]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:10 AM, MARK246 said:

The 4 valve concept was not a new idea, the 1930's ? Rudge engines had 4 valves. I wonder if the pre-war riders worried about the costs changing to the two valve J.A.P's

Loads of pre war motorcycle engines had 4 valve heads. Neil Street told me that prior to leaving home to come to the UK he knew little about engines but during the weeks on board ship he continually stripped and rebuilt his speedway bike to fully grasp how it all worked. Certainly he was a highly skilled engineer if self taught and understood every nuance of a Speedway engine. In the early part of this century he had absolutely no doubt that he could manufacture an engine that would be both faster and more reliable than either the GM or Jawa and having spent many hours talking engines with him I never doubted it. He saw no point in doing it because he said any ideas he had would just be pinched by others and he would get nothing out of it, he never told me how he would go about it though .

Max Richards had a Wal Phillips laydown JAP over his place a couple of years ago, can't remember what year it was but either 40's or early 50's I think. I have a photo somewhere I'll look out.

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure that Jack Parker, Peter Craven and Co would have been able to ride a modern bike at the highest level and am equally sure that Tai Woffinden, Greg Hancock etc would have been top riders on a Douglas, Rudge, JAP or 2v Jawa.  I do think many people massively underestimate the skills needed by modern riders.

[steve roberts]

5 minutes ago, Vince said:

Loads of pre war motorcycle engines had 4 valve heads. Neil Street told me that prior to leaving home to come to the UK he knew little about engines but during the weeks on board ship he continually stripped and rebuilt his speedway bike to fully grasp how it all worked. Certainly he was a highly skilled engineer if self taught and understood every nuance of a Speedway engine. In the early part of this century he had absolutely no doubt that he could manufacture an engine that would be both faster and more reliable than either the GM or Jawa and having spent many hours talking engines with him I never doubted it. He saw no point in doing it because he said any ideas he had would just be pinched by others and he would get nothing out of it, he never told me how he would go about it though .

Max Richards had a Wal Phillips laydown JAP over his place a couple of years ago, can't remember what year it was but either 40's or early 50's I think. I have a photo somewhere I'll look out.

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure that Jack Parker, Peter Craven and Co would have been able to ride a modern bike at the highest level and am equally sure that Tai Woffinden, Greg Hancock etc would have been top riders on a Douglas, Rudge, JAP or 2v Jawa.  I do think many people massively underestimate the skills needed by modern riders.

i would generally agree but as I posted earlier when Kelly Moran tried a lay down engine he apparently found it difficult to ride (although past his best by then) but being such a naturally gifted motorcyclist he would have no doubt conquered the machine. I recall an interview with Briggo (I think?) who stated that  the J.A.P. would do their best to throw you off and riders wouldn't have been able to hang off the back of the machine as tends to be the relatively modern trend. All about those best able to adapt to the changing machines whether engines and/or frames etc. at the end of the day.

[MARK246]

11 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

 I recall an interview with Briggo (I think?) who stated that  the J.A.P. would do their best to throw you off and riders wouldn't have been able to hang off the back of the machine as tends to be the relatively modern trend. 

I think the quote was from Ronnie Moore relating a conversation with a top British tour rider who thought he was special.

Vince, there is an image of a laid down J.A.P on newcastlespeedayhistory.com

Edited October 25, 2018 by MARK246
Additional information

[IainB]

2 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

I think it certainly makes him a better sportsman... Which is what we're discussing here, to suggest that Holder is not as good after Wards injury just to me suggests that Tai is better at what he does than Holder is and don't forget he had to deal with the death of his father

Edited October 25, 2018 by iainb

[Grachan]

3 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

Onion suggesting Ward didn't have the brain power, lol!

I think I see what you mean about woffinden and how he used his skill to plot his way into the torun fence while not taking risks?

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

It absolutely isn't ridiculous to suggest it either, quite the opposite in fact.

I would argue that it does.

Take Peter Collins as an example. He was so affected by the death of Tommy Jansson that he didn't turn up for a meeting afterwards. But later the same year he won the World title.

It's all a part of the mental strength that makes you a champion.

[BWitcher]

4 hours ago, Fred Flange said:

 

I agree that woffinden was less affected by Wards injury than Holder, that was the point, but I don't agree that someone who copes well with post traumatic stress is necessarily 'better' than someone who doesn't? 

It absolutely isn't ridiculous to suggest it either, quite the opposite in fact.

Of course it is. 

The ability to recover mentally from a crash, the ability to recover mentally from seeing others in a crash, these are ingredients that can make one rider more successful than another. There are many riders over the years who were 'never the same' after a crash, not always a major injury either. 

Sam Ermolenko for instance came back better than ever from his horror smash in 89, whereas someone like Joe Screen was never quite the same after his bad leg break.

With regards to Wolves riders, Mikael Max had a crash in Australia at the end of the GP, he was never close to being the same rider again, whereas Freddie Lindgren had similar crashes and came back even better.

So no, it's far from 'ridiculous', it's a major ingredient.

Edited October 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[Chadster]

I feel that Holder was never the same after his bad crash at Coventry (was it the year after he won the world title?).

[Hodgy]

2 hours ago, Chadster said:

I feel that Holder was never the same after his bad crash at Coventry (was it the year after he won the world title?).

Yes was 2013 the season after winning the World title. Agree, Holder never the same after that terrible crash at Coventry. Followed by the tragic injury to his best mate and bitter family break up - it’s been a tough few years since the glory of 2012.