Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[moxey63]

17 minutes ago, chunky said:

Of course, British Champion is a much greater achievement than World Champion...

Steve

It is in the Nicholls' household.

[BWitcher]

6 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

It is in the Nicholls' household.

I would suggest Mr Nicholls would say otherwise.

[moxey63]

26 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

I would suggest Mr Nicholls would say otherwise.

You would.

[chunky]

1 hour ago, moxey63 said:

When did I say that, about him not being in the top 20 British riders? You find it laughable, but I didn't say it. That's what I mean, words put into mouths and people think it's the truth. Course he'd be in the top 20... even the top 10.

I'm so sorry; that was somebody else.

Many apologies...

Steve

[BWitcher]

36 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

You would.

Are you now trying to claim Scott Nicholls would rather be 'British Champion' than 'World Champion'? Seriously?

[Vince]

I'd bet Scott Nicholls would say that Tai Woffinden is a better rider than he was at his peak.

Of the names mentioned that I have seen ride I can only think of Peter Collins and Michael Lee having any claim to be better (never saw Peter craven or those who came before him so can't offer a sensible opinion). Peter Collins had fantastic skills and was very exciting to watch, like Tai his gating was inconsistent but I would say Tai is a little better. He could pass anywhere on the track, generally on the outside but where I think Tai shades it is in his ability to produce the big ride when the pressure is really on.

Michael Lee had a huge natural talent to ride a bike fast, quite probably more natural talent than Tai. However with his work ethic at the time of his peak he would not have stood a chance in todays Speedway where a fitness regime is such an important part of being truly world class.

I apologise if I've taken this thread off at a tangent and made it about Tai Woffinden.

[fatface]

15 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

You would.

I think you should consider yourself very lucky anyone at all is still interacting with you. I'm sure you are a lovely guy in the real world, but - I say this as a fellow Belle Vue fan - you have conducted yourself like a complete twerp on this thread.

Can't believe this thread is still going, then again, looking upwards, I can.

If there is one area of agreement, it is that you cannot compare eras. Different riders, different tracks, different times. But what we can say unequivocally is that Tai Woffinden is achieving more in his era than any other Brit has managed in theirs. There have been some red herrings dropped in over it being a weak era or the silly notion that there are team orders or even attacks on Tai personally - all smack of desperation in this argument.

As much as I am biased towards the 80s,  from today's era, I see some real talent racing to their optimum ability and the best facing the best with great regularity. I think it's safe to say he's past his best now, but he's a three-time World Champion and yet Nicki Pedersen has been visibly busting a gut just to keep up at times.

I've said it above, but I'll repeat it nonetheless, Tai Woffinden truly has the lot - he is a complete rider. If he were a Top Trumps Card, he'd be scoring high on everything - starting ability, overtaking ability, professionalism/dedication, ability under pressure. And if you are not enjoying his success now, well, I think you are going to have to suck it up for a while yet. Unlike his British predecessors Loram, Havelock, Lee, Collins, he has real longevity at the very top level. I'd be shocked if he didn't won one or a few more World Championships.

[orion]

4 hours ago, moxey63 said:

I know that... idiot. Perhaps you're the third one, that was placed into care.

Do you ? ..you said  I was like the dim one in Bevis and Butthead ..both are as dim as each other ..only one idiot here and it's you .try to get something right for a change

[Aces51]

It's impossible to compare riders of different eras and the number of titles won is no more than a guide because it all depends on the quality of the opposition at the time and various other factors.

My favourite rider and the one I believe to be the best ever British rider is Peter Craven but I can't prove that to be true and nobody can disprove it.

For those not privileged to have seen the other PC, Peter Collins, at his best, just watch and enjoy heats 3 and 7 of this video of the 1976 world final.

I've never seen Tai race like that but Tai may have longevity on his side. We can better judge him when he retires.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Aces51

[moxey63]

2 hours ago, falcace said:

I think you should consider yourself very lucky anyone at all is still interacting with you. I'm sure you are a lovely guy in the real world, but - I say this as a fellow Belle Vue fan - you have conducted yourself like a complete twerp on this thread.

Can't believe this thread is still going, then again, looking upwards, I can.

If there is one area of agreement, it is that you cannot compare eras. Different riders, different tracks, different times. But what we can say unequivocally is that Tai Woffinden is achieving more in his era than any other Brit has managed in theirs. There have been some red herrings dropped in over it being a weak era or the silly notion that there are team orders or even attacks on Tai personally - all smack of desperation in this argument.

As much as I am biased towards the 80s,  from today's era, I see some real talent racing to their optimum ability and the best facing the best with great regularity. I think it's safe to say he's past his best now, but he's a three-time World Champion and yet Nicki Pedersen has been visibly busting a gut just to keep up at times.

I've said it above, but I'll repeat it nonetheless, Tai Woffinden truly has the lot - he is a complete rider. If he were a Top Trumps Card, he'd be scoring high on everything - starting ability, overtaking ability, professionalism/dedication, ability under pressure. And if you are not enjoying his success now, well, I think you are going to have to suck it up for a while yet. Unlike his British predecessors Loram, Havelock, Lee, Collins, he has real longevity at the very top level. I'd be shocked if he didn't won one or a few more World Championships.

Please, let's forget the attacks on me. I know I shouldn't rise to the bait. I think I've been called a freeloader,  accused of saying things I haven't said...

Club loyalties apart, although for a long time I have been more of a general speedway follower than of one particular club, I agree that you agree with me about comparing different eras. Tai is the best of this era. Each era last 10-15 years. Where opinions come into it, and I have had it up to here with not being able to have an opinion, titles alone don't persuade me that Tai is any better than what's come before.  And, again, I have to reiterate, I am not attacking him as a person.

Each era's riders can only be compared with the standard they were up against. My belief is that the current era isn't upto the standard of previous ones. Yet by saying this, I am being smeared by all corners. I know the current era is more professional than ones before, riders are fitter etc, but why would that make them any better than other eras?

It can't be proved, of course, and only history will be able to tell how good a rider Tai really is. With a bit of luck on his side, for example, Peter Collins could have won at least three titles on the trot. On the other hand, Mark Loram didn't win a single GP and yet was crowned champion. Michael Lee, had he not been sidetracked by things away from the sport, would have also won at least another title.

I acted like a "twerp" because people on here started sidetracking from the argument. My opinion was ridiculed because I don't watch current speedway, I was a freeloader anyway, and I have said things in the past that I really didn't say.

I agree, Tai will probably take another title or two. But what is wrong with me saying it is a weak period we're going through? Riders we thought would conquer for years have for various reasons fallen by the wayside - Chris Holder, Darcy Ward, Emil Sayfutdnow, who's genuine hunger to be Grand Prix Champion saw him quit the competition and go off and ride in the European tournament instead. If Tai, as Hans Nielsen has said, does go on the break the record of titles, unless something changes within my mind, I won't personally regard him as the best ever. Look at the opposition Mauger had to restrict him to his six titles, Nielsen had Gundersen, Rickardsson had Crump and a few others. Compare it to the rivals Tai has had barking at his ankles. To me, they don't seem as hard.  

I base my opinion on Greg Hancock being able to claim two titles despite being in his forties - something no one has ever done in the past. He deserves credit. No doubt someone will harp on about there being more fitness in today's racing. But that means everyone has similar fitness and so a 40-odd-year-old shouldn't be twice a champion, 20 years after his first one.  

 

 

 

 

[BWitcher]

You've never seen Tai race like that????

Jesus. Heat 3, PC is up against two average riders who'd be lucky to get a sniff of a Grand Prix place. He just goes round them, nice and easy as he should.

Heat 7 a much better race, but it's clear how much faster his equipment is...despite the claims made earlier in this thread. Can't take anything away though, brilliant ride.

Great riding but you really fail yourself when you claim you have 'never seen Tai race like that'.
 

And then the first race of this selection...
 

So now you have seen Woffinden ride like that.

Edited October 22, 2018 by BWitcher

[Vince]

How long before somebody says that Hancock let him through in the first race because they have the same sponsor?

[Aces51]

45 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

You've never seen Tai race like that????

Jesus. Heat 3, PC is up against two average riders who'd be lucky to get a sniff of a Grand Prix place. He just goes round them, nice and easy as he should.

Heat 7 a much better race, but it's clear how much faster his equipment is...despite the claims made earlier in this thread. Can't take anything away though, brilliant ride.

Great riding but you really fail yourself when you claim you have 'never seen Tai race like that'.
 

And then the first race of this selection...
 

So now you have seen Woffinden ride like that.

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

Errr no.

Doug Wyer and Jiri Stancl were not 'World Class' riders.

I'm not disputing how good PC was, simply pointing out that once again the evidence provided is nonsense.

The examples I have posted show Woffinden hunting down and passing World Champions, including reigning ones on a variety of different size tracks... 

I find it incredulous that you can claim you have 'never seen Woffinden race like that'. Surely you must admit that statement is utter nonsense?

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Vince said:

How long before somebody says that Hancock let him through in the first race because they have the same sponsor?

Very true, never mind that though.. Hancock, the World Champion at the time wasn't a World Class rider like Jiri Stancl was!

[Tsunami]

10 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Here he is again, an adult in a full football kit. Grow up, man.

 

I would love it... love it... if you could find these posts in which I've said all that.

 

A lie is halfway around the forum before the truth has its pants on. 

What is the relevance of that observation ?

Once again in denial that you said it. I am a very grown up man, and still with full senses, unlike you with your convenient memory lapses. You kid no one.

[Aces51]

29 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Errr no.

Doug Wyer and Jiri Stancl were not 'World Class' riders.

I'm not disputing how good PC was, simply pointing out that once again the evidence provided is nonsense.

The examples I have posted show Woffinden hunting down and passing World Champions, including reigning ones on a variety of different size tracks... 

I find it incredulous that you can claim you have 'never seen Woffinden race like that'. Surely you must admit that statement is utter nonsense?

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

[orion]

8 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

I doubt Wyer and Stanci are anyone near the standard of riders Tai beats up week in week out in the Gp's ..to be honest it's shocking to behind them in the first place ..you can see how much Collins bikes are faster are  as well .

 

[chunky]

21 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

You speak a lot of sense on the BSF - generally - but I have to disagree with your comments here. I have seen Woffinden make some amazing moves against world-class opposition and leave them standing. Maybe it doesn't look quite same, because of the track conditions, the machinery, and the generic riding styles today, but it has very much the same effect as some of the moves that PC used to make.

I deliberately truncated your post, but with regard to Doug Wyer, he was a great rider, and he had a great year in 1976. However, even that year, I do not feel he ever approached the level of riders like Simmons, Louis, or Sanders, let alone the level of PC, Olsen, or Mauger. That means I don't even put him alongside the likes of Janowski, Hancock, or the two Russians.

Steve

Edited October 22, 2018 by chunky

[Aces51]

That's fair enough Chunky, that's a reasonable point of view and your opinion, which I don't happen to share. I don't think you can compare riders from different eras. I think it's impossible to say whether Wyer in 1976 was as good as some of those you mention are today. That's why I don't say that PC was better than Woffinden but that at his best he dominated his contemporaries in a way that I haven't seen Tai do with his contemporaries. I suspect that we can both agree that PC and Tai were/are outstanding riders of their generation.