IainB Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, foamfence said: Your supercilious attitude precludes debate. Happy to debate... Surely the only definition of best is winning the world championship, it means you are the complete rider, these days more than ever with the GP series, yes you can have your favourites and prefer to watch them, you may think others are better passers or gaters or have done whatever. You can only beat what is in front of you. Who was better TRick or Crumpy? The record books say TRick, but Crumpy medaled for 10 consecutive years, an amazing achievement, not equalled, not the best ever but the most consistent ever. Edited October 5, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 32 minutes ago, Eric Parsons said: Unfortunately not the greatest British rider, turns his back on British league does not ride in British Final should not be allowed in any GB team , past British riders had a one off world final all a matter of five rides on the day to get it right, Tai has the Luxury of many rounds and can afford a few off meetings , backed up with large mechanical team nowadays and mostly about all out speed, I certainly believe the riders of yesteryears needed a lot more skill and sure did not rely on all out speed. Tai simply can not be classed or compared To the hero’s of yesteryear. You could equally argue that past British Champions only had to put 5 decent rides together on one night. The weather and track could have suited their riding style perfectly and they became World Champion. Likewise a single fall or breakdown break down by a rival could take them out of contention. In the GP series this year Tai will probably have to have around 50 good rides on different size tracks with different surfaces over several months to become Champion. Personally I think that takes a lot of the luck out of winning. The skills required today might be a bit different but I firmly believe that todays riders are at least as talented as their forebears and the top riders of any generation could have been there at any time. No way to know for sure whether Peter Craven or Tommy Price could have won a World Championship now but I suspect they could and I equally believe Tai could have ridden in their style and been at the very top in their era. I keep reading that todays riders don't have so much skill but I think it's complete nonsense, todays bikes are different but if you think all they do is pin the throttle and hang on you are very wrong. I'd put Tai right up there with the best of British riders and on results he is clearly the best. Not only that as I've said elsewhere I think he is the best first turn rider I have ever seen of any nationality in the 50 years I've been following the sport. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Agree with Foamfence. If Woffy gets no 3, and he probably will, then that makes him the most successful British rider in the world championship - which is really really good. Tai has matured in the last couple years, as a person and a rider. He makes speedway look so easy. He must be full of confidence at the moment, tomorrow he just has to stay clear of bikes flying at him. Be interesting when the draw is announced, at what point he meets Zmarzlik. If its in his first 2 rides and he beats Zmarzlik then I think it will be a stroll to the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoff100 Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 To me he is a one trick pony on the first turn u know he is going to cut back up the inside with his front wheel over the white line, in the good old days of one night 5rides against better riders he would look average, apart from a pole and an old american who has he to beat ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee jay Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 one off finals were won by the best / luckiest rider on the night ( weekend at amsterdam ), many lost because of one bad ride / bad start / snapped chain / bad referee decision etc. no way would jerzy szczakiel or egon muller be in the record books if it had been a series of 10 -12 venues then. titles now are won by the best rider over the season , injuries apart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee jay Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, geoff100 said: To me he is a one trick pony on the first turn u know he is going to cut back up the inside with his front wheel over the white line, in the good old days of one night 5rides against better riders he would look average, apart from a pole and an old american who has he to beat ! that's not a bad trick to have in your locker if you're off a dodgy gate 4 or you just miss the start . he can also drop the clutch and leave the others in his dust so that's a 2 trick pony at the very least . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sotonian Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, iainb said: Happy to debate... Surely the only definition of best is winning the world championship, it means you are the complete rider, these days more than ever with the GP series, yes you can have your favourites and prefer to watch them, you may think others are better passers or gaters or have done whatever. You can only beat what is in front of you. Who was better TRick or Crumpy? The record books say TRick, but Crumpy medaled for 10 consecutive years, an amazing achievement, not equalled, not the best ever but the most consistent ever. Ove Fundin had already achieved that, Crumpy merely equalled him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 52 minutes ago, Sotonian said: Ove Fundin had already achieved that, Crumpy merely equalled him. But Crumpy did it in the GP era, where you can't get lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 53 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter The GP series is basically an 'invitation' series of meetings as was often stated by no greater rider than Ivan Mauger himself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 54 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter ...and every final was held on his home track... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances. Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none. So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins. Then of course there was Peter Collins...….. Apart from being world champ '76 and 2nd '77 (arguably could/should have been more) World Pairs 4x winner, 1x 2nd World Team 5x winner, 3x 2nd World Long Tack 1x 2nd, 2x 3rd, 1x 4th, 1x 5th Of course, just getting in a World Team or World Pairs was tough in those days, so many top riders for GB Argument could be put forward that Tai has some catching up (although 3x world champ is very good on his CV) Edited October 5, 2018 by OveFundinFan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: Could be said that Peter Craven was more successful then Freddie Williams. PC won 2, 3rd twice, 4th twice, and appeared in 10 finals compared with FW 5 final appearances. Plus Craven won medals in the World team, 2x 2nd, and 2x 3rd, Freddie none. So you can make a case for greatest from all round success rather then WC wins. Then of course there was Peter Collins...….. ...or British League successes. I'm of the John Berry ilk. I don't just grade great riders on individual championships alone but their all round contribution whether as an individual or a team player. However can't comment on Tai as I've never seen him ride but saw his dad, Rob, often. Edited October 5, 2018 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, mickthemuppet said: Under the old World Championship the most successful rider was Freddie Williams with two world championships and one runner's up. But then it was open to all riders and not like today when it is only a few are allowed to enter Who do you think is missing from the current series that could win a Championship. On the other hand under the old system you could have a potential winner out of the World Championship in the first round. I went to some of the Wembley finals and while they were great occasions there was a deal of luck involved with gate positions let alone mechanical problems or injuries and don't ever forget it was possible to buy points off those who had a bad night toward the end of the meeting.. Great events but not the best way to find the worlds best rider that year in my opinion. One other thing to remember was that Wembley World finals didn't produce much in the way of great racing, certainly in these days of instant comment they would be slaughtered as race meetings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, steve roberts said: The GP series is basically an 'invitation' series of meetings as was often stated by no greater rider than Ivan Mauger himself. But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, chunky said: ...and every final was held on his home track... Steve But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, mickthemuppet said: But he had qualifying rounds at Belle Vue and West Ham (Which he also won) to get to Wembley in 1950 But nothing in Sweden,Poland,Russia,Germany and not even in Glasgow!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 46 minutes ago, iris123 said: But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through ...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 55 minutes ago, iris123 said: But it isn’t.You have to qualify for the GPs just as for most sporting championships.The qualification specifications are set out beforehand.It doesn’t make it any less a proper world championship because Hancock can’t get knocked out in some quali round and Ben Barker can somehow fluke a decent meeting on his home track and make i through Even today's GP closed shop is better than the old inter & continental final qualifiers where token quali spots were given to Eastern block countries effectively making the one off world final a 10 (ish) horse race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 5, 2018 Report Share Posted October 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...How many automatically qualify for the following year's competition based on their overall finishing position? Doesn’t matter.You said the magic word ‘qualify’!! Only a very small proportion are picked.Who qualifies in F1?How many qualify in Tennis or are there qualification rounds in the world cycling championship?Speedway at least has a quali route Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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