Sidney the robin Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, steve roberts said: I would agree Sid. Billy was riding as good as ever during 1983/84 and one can only wonder how his later career would have panned out. I still recall hearing the news and felt numb on hearing it. A great loss to the sport. All that hard graft and dedication he put in coming over here from the age of 16 wasted.I loved watching him ride Steve and that is coming from a avid Crump snr fan. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 19 minutes ago, falcace said: Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it. I think so he was really believing in himself and as Ivan and Hancock have proved age is no barrier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, falcace said: Yes, but it was mid April, that’s a world away from having that average in Sept. Morton, Carter etc were also usually up in the mid 11s at that stage of the season. His best chance was in 84 on a track he rode brilliantly with a wide open field and he was inexplicably poor. At aged 29-34, was he really set to challenge the Danes from 85-89? I don’t see it. I agree. Billy's big chance was around his favourite track in 1984, and he was nowhere near. He'd already been well-and-truly eclipsed by Gundersen and Nielsen in that meeting. Edited March 14, 2019 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: I think so he was really believing in himself and as Ivan and Hancock have proved age is no barrier. How do you know that? Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally. Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, falcace said: How do you know that? Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally. Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one. Have to agree with you on Billy Saunders. Even in 1983/84, when he was being talked about as a contender at the start of televised meetings, I never really saw it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 16 hours ago, BWitcher said: Ah Bless. You realise he flew out the gate in that race before losing concentration as his dream was already secured. It was actually his third bike on the night, also one of the engines that carried him to an 11+ average that season. Seems someone is harboring a grudge Quite possibly, i certainly wouldn't rule that out .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 5 hours ago, falcace said: How do you know that? Obviously - tragically - he was a man in a very bad place mentally. Would a notoriously homesick Sanders have pushed on towards his 40s? Did he have the same unquenchable desire and ability as those notable exceptions Mauger and Hancock? Sorry Sidney, I can't buy that one. He wasnt in a bad place racing wise Falcace, he was doing great and really going forward in his career.His personal life who knows what was going on but those two years up until his death he really was maturing.Also you were a huge Sigalos fan like myself i believe Sigalos was a class act yet Sanders was on par with Sigalos easily.Norden 83 Sigalos disappointing Sanders placed and there is a arguement. that Billy should of been HARDER on Muller in 83 when he had every chance Siggy was pretty poor in Norden..Also 85 if Sanders had got there Bradford would of been fine for him he would of loved it.My point really Falcace is with Penhall, Lee, Sigalos, Carter, gone it really opened up nicely for the three danes including Knudsen as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 16 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: He wasnt in a bad place racing wise Falcace, he was doing great and really going forward in his career.His personal life who knows what was going on but those two years up until his death he really was maturing.Also you were a huge Sigalos fan like myself i believe Sigalos was a class act yet Sanders was on par with Sigalos easily.Norden 83 Sigalos disappointing Sanders placed and there is a arguement. that Billy should of been HARDER on Muller in 83 when he had every chance Siggy was pretty poor in Norden..Also 85 if Sanders had got there Bradford would of been fine for him he would of loved it.My point really Falcace is with Penhall, Lee, Sigalos, Carter, gone it really opened up nicely for the three danes including Knudsen as well. Sorry, don't buy that Sid. With the possible exception of Dennis Sigalos and given that Penhall actually chose to quit speedway (there weren't any other circumstances in his case), none of the above would have troubled the domination of the two Danes between 1984 and 1989. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, lucifer sam said: Sorry, don't buy that Sid. With the possible exception of Dennis Sigalos and given that Penhall actually chose to quit speedway (there weren't any other circumstances in his case), none of the above would have troubled the domination of the two Danes between 1984 and 1989. Do yo remember Sam??? check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its feet. Edited March 14, 2019 by Sidney the robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Do yo remember Sam??? check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its feet. Lee wasn't injured. He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability. There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 29 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said: Do yo remember Sam??? check the head to head records from the start Lee was the boss over Nielsen and Gundersen and Carter did very well to.Sanders/ Sigalos were players but fringe players.If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. Nielsen/ Erik were great riders but there competition dwindled and the era ended up falling on its feet. Sid, some of those riders were still around at the start of the Erik/Hans domination period and couldn't do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Lee wasn't injured. He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability. There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time. And indeed Penhall, Carter and Sanders did not pick up career-ending speedway injuries either. The only one from Sid's list to be ruled out by injury was Sigalos. The rest ruled themselves out, one way or another. Edited March 14, 2019 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: Sanders had not peaked in my opinion he was just approaching it the two years before his demise he really had upped his game. Always reckoned that if Billy (and everyone else that day) had not met Muller at Norden in 1983 he'd prob have been Champ that year, he was 2nd with Lee 3rd. And I also wish Penhall had stuck around a few more years to hopefully give Gundersen & Nielsen a run for their money. It's fun to compare rider & eras, but conditions are always different (bikes, tracks, competitions WF v GPs) so one ends up with 'if only's' & 'maybes'.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said: If Penhall had hung around he would of won more titles as well and Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. IF!!! IF!!! I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated? Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument. Think about it. If Penhall... If Carter... If Lee... If Sigalos... Even throw in : If Collins... If Sanders... Steve 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 hours ago, Sidney the robin said: Penhall keeping Lee motiavated would of changed thing's. I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? It’s just imaginary thinking and not grounded in any evidence from the individuals concerned or those around them. Or certainly none that I’ve ever read or seen. Sanders was a world class rider and to my mind, he did really really well to get on the World Final rostrum twice. But even then, I think the vast majority of people would not rank him as one of the top three in the world. Was he winning major events like the BLRC, Intercontinental Final? Was he topping the averages? Yes, he did very well to get on the rostrum, but it doesn’t mean he was in the same elite as the Penhalls, Nielsens and Gundersens of the world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 10 minutes ago, falcace said: I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? I agree. We've seen some silly posts on here, and quite honestly, that wasn't one of them. However, that was quite possibly the most bizarre one I've ever seen... I was a Sanders fan, he was a world-class rider, and he was a contender, but I would never consider him a realistic threat to the few at the very top. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 5 hours ago, falcace said: I’m really not sure where this comes from. Was Lee unmotivated in 1983? Also Sanders has really started to believe in himself? It’s just imaginary thinking and not grounded in any evidence from the individuals concerned or those around them. Or certainly none that I’ve ever read or seen. Sanders was a world class rider and to my mind, he did really really well to get on the World Final rostrum twice. But even then, I think the vast majority of people would not rank him as one of the top three in the world. Was he winning major events like the BLRC, Intercontinental Final? Was he topping the averages? Yes, he did very well to get on the rostrum, but it doesn’t mean he was in the same elite as the Penhalls, Nielsens and Gundersens of the world. Lee said Penhall was the one guy that kept him motivated and on his toes and was the rider he always had to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 4 hours ago, chunky said: I agree. We've seen some silly posts on here, and quite honestly, that wasn't one of them. However, that was quite possibly the most bizarre one I've ever seen... I was a Sanders fan, he was a world-class rider, and he was a contender, but I would never consider him a realistic threat to the few at the very top. Steve This is one of the craziest posts i have read the bloke has already been on the rostrum twice is odviously improving yet you basically class him as a also ran.Did you actually see him ride in the last two years of his life live chunky? because if you had you would definitely recognise that he had improved one hell of a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney the robin Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 hours ago, BWitcher said: Lee wasn't injured. He hadn't got what it took. There's more to success than just ability. There are no excuses, he hadn't got the package to be the best over a consistent period of time. I can't disagree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted March 15, 2019 Report Share Posted March 15, 2019 10 hours ago, chunky said: IF!!! IF!!! I think Penhall would have won more, but we will never know because he didn't hang around. How do we know he would have kept Lee motivated? Yes, it's fun to speculate, but opinions mean absolutely nothing. Particularly with this era, there are more "if's" than ever, and for every "if" leading to one possible conclusion, there is at least one countering any argument. Think about it. If Penhall... If Carter... If Lee... If Sigalos... Even throw in : If Collins... If Sanders... Steve If Lance King had stayed at Cradley in 1985, and the flow of his career not been interrupted... There's another But here's a counter IF... IF Erik Gundersen hadn't been seriously injured, what would have happened? At the time of his injury, Erik looked like capable of winning more, while Hans had won three out of the last four titles. So what were we looking at? Erik a 6-time champion and Hans a 8-time champion? The other way around? How long into the 1990s would the domination continued, with a fit Erik and an unfettered Hans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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