MARK246 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, chunky said: No. The scoring meant that whoever was fourth didn't win... Steve Positive spin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, MARK246 said: Positive spin. As opposed to made up nonsense which you continually post. Some of your posts could land you in hot water legally too with your accusations of race fixing and cheating. It's already been explained to you the scoring system by both myself and Grachan so it's rendered your point (yet again) irrelevant. As for the final, when the system is used... Its a TEAM event so quite logically the first TEAM to finish wins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Looking at PC's journey to the 76 world title it doesn't look that dominant (on paper) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Seems like all the bad points of the BSF forum have come out in this thread, as well as others ie Brexit It goes on and on and on, its very boring and very childish. There are times its just best to walk away from the computer (or tablet/phone) and have a cup of tea. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, MARK246 said: Positive spin. Nothing to do with spin. Fact! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 47 minutes ago, iainb said: Looking at PC's journey to the 76 world title it doesn't look that dominant (on paper) He won his qualifying round, the semi final, was 4th in the British Final and won the Intercontinental Final and the World Final. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 I would love to see PC (at his best) at the current NSS BV stadium. Let him miss all gates and see him ride it, Chris Morton as well. Would be brilliant. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: This is the point, they aren't. The only people 'desperate' to force their opinion over are the Peter Collins fans. Those who think Woffinden ranks right up there have consistently said PC ranks right up there (both of them) and there is a good argument for them to be considered as good. The PC fans constantly keep coming up with points they feel 'proves' why PC was better. As yet every single one of those points has been a failure. "Woffinden has access to better equipment, it wasn't like that in PC's day".. It actually turns out that in his World Final win PC had a completely different engine (4 valve) to much of the field and a massive advantage! A point furthered by Simmons and Crump filling the rostrum. Woffinden's rivals are all on the same machinery. "PC dominated his rivals more than Woffinden does'.. again proven wrong by Waiheke. 'PC faced more top riders than Woffinden does now because of all the 10pters'... this comedy statement proved wrong with ease. That's just a few, there have been more. That's the reason why the thread has gone on so long. So to finish, I again re-iterate, I and I believe most others are certainly NOT questioning the right to hold the opinion that Peter Collins was the best Brit ever. I may not necessarily agree but it's not something that can be definitively proven either way. By the general measuring sticks used Woffinden is ahead, but that is all they are, general measuring sticks. I think some people should feel blessed to have seem them both at their peaks (and some all three including Craven!). It is also worth remembering that Collins had been forced to retire through injury at the age two years younger than Woffinden is now. He was just 26 when he damaged his shoulder at Cradley in 1980 and forced him to retire from racing until 1982. He was never the same. Prior to his Dudley Wood accident in conditions that shouldn't have seen speedway raced, Collins had suffered a share of misfortune in World Finals and could have won from 1975-79. The second part of Collins' career from 82-86 possibly diminished what had gone before. Had he enjoyed a little more luck, I guess we'd be asking today if Tai could equal his record of titles. Edited October 23, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 48 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said: I would love to see PC (at his best) at the current NSS BV stadium. Let him miss all gates and see him ride it, Chris Morton as well. Would be brilliant. Whilst I agree with you regarding PC & Morton at the NSS, NEVER forget also just how good Chris Pusey was, very underestimated rider. Remember my parents taking me to a grass track in the very early 70s to watch PC, Pusey just blew him away!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Aces51 said: He won his qualifying round, the semi final, was 4th in the British Final and won the Intercontinental Final and the World Final. Wouldn't of said he dominated though... No commonwealth final, no overseas final Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, moxey63 said: The second part of Collins' career from 82-86 possibly diminished what had gone before. Had he enjoyed a little more luck, I guess we'd be asking today if Tai could equal his record of titles. Any coincidence that the professionalism in the sport moved ahead massively in these years with the emergence of Nielsen and Gundersen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sommelier Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, iainb said: Any coincidence that the professionalism in the sport moved ahead massively in these years with the emergence of Nielsen and Gundersen? Yes its moved on to another level, back in the late 60s early 70s Mauger & Olsen took it to a very high level of professionalism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, g13webb said: Of all the speedway periods I have watched, I do believe the 70's and 80's were the most enjoyable. but also the most defining time of bike technology Racing then was so different where the emphasis was more on the rider than on the bike. Racing was closer and more exciting, and because the UK was the centre of the speedway world, every decent rider raced here regularly for various teams... There is nowhere in the world that has the variation of tracks like we have here in England, and that has a massive bearing when comparing riders of today against those of yesteryear. Once upon a time a good rider could get on any bike and win, but not now. The machinery now has so much importance .A poor rider can get on a quick bike and make himself look good. Todays bikes are high revving speed machines that require a totally different skill than those of the past. coupled that, to the track design Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crump took a whole 3 seconds off a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximums they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down. It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even big difference even in the 70s Edited October 23, 2018 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 If good riders could get on any bike and win in the 70s, why do people make excuses for Peter Collins display in the 78 British final... And why did NZ use Ivans bikes for 14 of the 16 heats in the 79 final if average riders couldn't go better on quick bikes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OveFundinFan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 I think the year that someone put sugar in the fuel tank of PC at British final (1978 I think) could have had a psychological effect on PC. Didn't seem the same after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, iris123 said: Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crimp took a whole 3 seconds of a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximims they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down. It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even bog difference even in the 70s That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes. Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport, Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions 'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by. Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points.. Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval, he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one. and that's going to cost the fans more money... By the time Lee started back in '75, 4 valvers were in full swing. The 2 valves died an instant death... Jawa, Weslakes and GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today. Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few that had works machinery…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, g13webb said: That was the start of the technology that put more emphasis on the bikes. Back in 1973 when Kings Lynn were riding against Newport, Street and Crumpy came to Saddlebow Road with two new inventions 'the Street 4 valvers'. They were ridiculous quick that gave them almighty advantage. It wasn't so much that Crump scored a maximum but the distance he won by. Neil Street, although getting on in years was still a competent competitor who raced to 11 points.. Sitting in the pits with Terry Betts during the interval, he suggested the bikes should be banned, because if not, every rider would have to get one. and that's going to cost the fans more money... By the time Lee started back in '75, 4 valvers were in full swing. The 2 valves died an instant death... Jawa, Weslakes and GM were all the rage, but they were never tuned to the levels they are today. Back in the mid 70's most riders rode standard bikes it was only the privilege few that had works machinery…. Not sure that all makes sense,Plus I don’t think it was 1973 was it?Crump was out pretty early that season and was in your team!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, iris123 said: Not sure that all makes sense,Plus I don’t think it was 1973 was it?Crump was out pretty early that season and was in your team!! Could have been 74, thought he moved from Lynn early 73 , but will check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, iris123 said: Not sure that is true.When Street developed his 4-valve both he and Crump were much faster than most until they managed to catch up.Crimp took a whole 3 seconds of a track record in Australia and the amount of full maximims they got was pretty amazing.Street for the first couple of months of that season must have been on a high average until everything settled down. It proved that the bike could make a decisive,even bog difference even in the 70s Somerton Park wasn't the best track to overtake on either with its four corners. That together with the advantage the 4 valves had from the start made the pair nearly unbeatable 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, moxey63 said: It is also worth remembering that Collins had been forced to retire through injury at the age two years younger than Woffinden is now. He was just 26 when he damaged his shoulder at Cradley in 1980 and forced him to retire from racing until 1982. He was never the same. Prior to his Dudley Wood accident in conditions that shouldn't have seen speedway raced, Collins had suffered a share of misfortune in World Finals and could have won from 1975-79. The second part of Collins' career from 82-86 possibly diminished what had gone before. Had he enjoyed a little more luck, I guess we'd be asking today if Tai could equal his record of titles. And tbf when assessing Pcs greatness I think most factor those things in. He was the best rider in the world in 76&77 And arguably would have won a gp series in both years. And you rightly say he could have won more but for the injury which saw him drop from being world class to more an international class (world top 20 rather than top 10) rider. At the same time in 80 you could argue he had been overtaken by the new generation of Lee and Penhall. People talk about Tais era being weak, but the era Gundersen and Nielsen dominated was marked by rge number of world class riders whose careers were prematurely curtailed or otherwise hampered - Penhall, Carter, Lee,Sigalos,Sanders plus Collins never the same after injury, the Morans never professional enough. I've also seen people say Mauger only started winning world titles once Briggs was past his best... Anyway, Tai the greatest brit for me, narrowly ahead of the two PCs then Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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