IainB Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, moxey63 said: If Tai, as Hans Nielsen has said, does go on the break the record of titles, unless something changes within my mind, I won't personally regard him as the best ever. Look at the opposition Mauger had to restrict him to his six titles, Nielsen had Gundersen, Rickardsson had Crump and a few others. Compare it to the rivals Tai has had barking at his ankles. To me, they don't seem as hard. Sometimes I think it's hard to recognise true greatness while it's happening in front of you. I remember Gary Havelock commenting on sky, I think, when TRick secured his 4th title that he had joined the greats of the sport and was a serious contender to Ivan Mauger, Tai's obviously not in that league yet, but I believe he will be. Also look at what Lewis Hamilton is currently doing, who'd have thought he'd be equaling Fangio's achievements 13 hours ago, BWitcher said: 12 hours ago, orion said: I doubt Wyer and Stanci are anyone near the standard of riders Tai beats up week in week out in the Gp's ..to be honest it's shocking to behind them in the first place ..you can see how much Collins bikes are faster are as well . At the risk of offending BV fans I would suggest that if Tai was riding in PC's era he'd be more akin to Olsen or Mauger but if PC were riding in Tai's era he'd be a Mark Loram who keeps forever missing the starts... That's not too say that Loram wouldn't have cleaned up in PC's era Edited October 23, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Grachan said: I was there too, by the way. I don't think there can be any disputing that PC was a better rider than Malcolm Simmons - good as Simmo was. The general feeling on that trip too was that we were going to Poland to watch Peter Collins become World Champion. Interesting that there was a mix of 2 valves and 4 valves in that meeting. Phil Crump would also have been on a 4 valve obviously - and came third despite being a serial under-performer in World Championships. Another rider who looked exceptionally fast was Egon Muller. So fast, perhaps, that he couldn't handle the speed! If I recall Ivan Mauger was riding a Long/Short Stroke (can't remember which without checking up)) Jawa powered bike which apparently compared more with a Long Track set up? PC deservedly won that day but Simmo was in the best form of his career that season having won both the Wills Internationale (against a World Class field) and the British Final (when it meant something). Would Simmo have ended up as Champion at Katowice if PC hadn't been present? We can only conjecture plus taking into account Ivan's engine failure that he maintained unto his dying day denied him the crown that year despite PC's justified claim to the contrary. Edited October 23, 2018 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Peter Collins was far inferior to Tai. I mean, he could only finish second with a badly broken leg in Sweden, 1977, surrounded by Mauger, Olsen and Lee in finishing order. This topic, though, is like who'd win a fight against Batman or Spiderman. No one can say. But many on here are trying to live that fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FigRoll Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) He can half ride a bike that Woffy Edited October 23, 2018 by FigRoll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: Woffinden passing and leaving WORLD CLASS riders for dead.. again. You aren't serious about this race. It's over at the first turn Dudek blocks Doyle's run to the turn and Zmarzlik retires from the race. Woffinden left with the whole track rides wide, Dudek sees Woffinden as they enter the third corner. He readjusts his line twice on turn 4 to allow Woffinden room on the outside, still unaware of Zmarzliks retirement he tucks in to cover the inside line for his team mate. Crossing the line the second time Dudek sees Zmarzlik on the infield, notice how his body language on the bike changes. It goes from body forward aggressive style to a more relaxed sat back arms straight position, from then on in the race, the throttle is eased off earlier and earlier on the straights keeping just enough speed to keep Doyle behind. What you want to see is your choice, that race shows everything that is wrong with the GP system 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Peter Collins was far inferior to Tai. I mean, he could only finish second with a badly broken leg in Sweden, 1977, surrounded by Mauger, Olsen and Lee in finishing order. This topic, though, is like who'd win a fight against Batman or Spiderman. No one can say. But many on here are trying to live that fight. Yea are you been the main one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, orion said: I did and it's double dutch .. you keep saying Collins can do all these things what Woffy can't (even thou that is not true of course ) and then you say that he's not better than him . It's quite clear you think Collins is better than him and if that is your opinion stick to it even thou most of it is based on fiction What are all the things? I've made one point, that Collins's was more dominant in his best years than Woffinden has been. You can disagree with that and put forward your reasons. For example, you might want to look at the quality of the opposition in the different eras, the quality of the machinery available or any other factor you think is relevant. Sensible posters have done that and I consider and respect the points they make. Abusive posts I treat with the contempt they deserve. I believe and have said before this particular discussion, that you cannot properly compare riders of different eras. My sole point throughout this discussion has been that I have not, so far, seen Woffinden ride, dominate, his contemporaries, as Collins did at his best. That doesn't make either of them better or worse than the other because their eras are too far apart and there are so many other factors that could be argued to try to explain why it was easier for Collins to be more dominant. It all comes down to opinion, there are no facts which can prove conclusively who is the best ever British rider. For what it's worth I don't think that either Collins or Woffinden is the best but it's just an opinion and I am sensible enough to acknowledge that fact. 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: It's a pity people have to make things up that are plainly false to try and prove a point. If you are SERIOUSLY for one moment trying to suggest that Woffinden has never passed World Class riders and left them for dead then quite frankly you haven't got a clue about speedway. That is NOT an opinion. That is reality. He has done it on many, many occasions. It isn't something to disagree on, it's not an opinion. If you don't understand that you simply do not belong in an adult conversation. Again, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion that PC was better. That IS your opinion and you are entitled to it. Entirely different to your false claims that can and will be shown to be false. I have expressed my opinion. I appreciate that others may think differently but unlike you I don't feel the need to demean myself by using childish abuse to try denigrate their opinions. Far too often you resort to the same tactics when posters disagree with you. In my opinion you try to intimidate and bully people with your abuse but rest assured you will not succeed with me. Edited October 23, 2018 by Aces51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 30 minutes ago, MARK246 said: You aren't serious about this race. It's over at the first turn Dudek blocks Doyle's run to the turn and Zmarzlik retires from the race. Woffinden left with the whole track rides wide, Dudek sees Woffinden as they enter the third corner. He readjusts his line twice on turn 4 to allow Woffinden room on the outside, still unaware of Zmarzliks retirement he tucks in to cover the inside line for his team mate. Crossing the line the second time Dudek sees Zmarzlik on the infield, notice how his body language on the bike changes. It goes from body forward aggressive style to a more relaxed sat back arms straight position, from then on in the race, the throttle is eased off earlier and earlier on the straights keeping just enough speed to keep Doyle behind. What you want to see is your choice, that race shows everything that is wrong with the GP system Good one How about Peter Collins making no attempt to pass Ivan Mauger in his final ride in the 1976 World Final? Does that show everything that is wrong with the one-off system? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aces51 said: I believe and have said before this particular discussion, that you cannot properly compare riders of different eras. My sole point throughout this discussion has been that I have not, so far, seen Woffinden ride, dominate, his contemporaries, as Collins did at his best. That doesn't make either of them better or worse than the other because their eras are too far apart and there are so many other factors that could be argued to try to explain why it was easier for Collins was more dominant. I guess you must have missed this one then. Watch and learn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, orion said: Yea are you been the main one Sorry... you broke up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 29 minutes ago, Grachan said: I guess you must have missed this one then. Watch and learn I've seen that, it's were BSI took a winner takes all extreme sport and made second and third better. Hahaha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aces51 said: What are all the things? I've made one point, that Collins's was more dominant in his best years than Woffinden has been. No you never made one point you also said that Collins left World class riders in his wake in races and woffy could not do that as well as saying that Collins bikes were not faster .. Do you forget what you wrote sometimes ? Edited October 23, 2018 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Aces51 said: My sole point throughout this discussion has been that I have not, so far, seen Woffinden ride, dominate, his contemporaries, as Collins did at his best. Did you see SoN? Not dominant enough for you? He did drop that point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Aces51 said: I have expressed my opinion. I appreciate that others may think differently but unlike you I don't feel the need to demean myself by using childish abuse to try denigrate their opinions. Far too often you resort to the same tactics when posters disagree with you. In my opinion you try to intimidate and bully people with your abuse but rest assured you will not succeed with me. You deserve demeaning when you can't hold a conversation with an understanding of the English language. Nobody has questioned your opinion that PC was better than Tai. Nobody has questioned the ability of PC as a rider, there is no doubt, he was brilliant. What has been corrected is your ridiculous statement that Woffinden has never passed and left World class riders for dead. That is false. Completely untrue and easily proven. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'opinion'. Your other claim is that Tai has never dominated his rivals in the same fashion as PC did in the 70's. Again this is false as Waiheke has already explained. I don't need to 'succeed'. I already have. You can continue to lie, spout your untruths and generally make yourself look a fool if you wish. You'll no doubt get a few likes along the way from some equally like minded folk but the bottom line remains, the above two points are nothing to do with 'opinion', they are factual statements easily dismissed.. which they have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, iainb said: Did you see SoN? Not dominant enough for you? He did drop that point... Didn't the scoring mean second and third won, there was no reason for any other rider to beat him. Perhaps the reason he was so dominant was other rides understood the rules 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, MARK246 said: I've seen that, it's were BSI took a winner takes all extreme sport and made second and third better. Hahaha Whatever you feel about the scoring system, there can be little doubt that Tai Woffinden totally dominated his contemporaries in a very strong field. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, moxey63 said: Peter Collins was far inferior to Tai. I mean, he could only finish second with a badly broken leg in Sweden, 1977, surrounded by Mauger, Olsen and Lee in finishing order. This topic, though, is like who'd win a fight against Batman or Spiderman. No one can say. But many on here are trying to live that fight. This is the point, they aren't. The only people 'desperate' to force their opinion over are the Peter Collins fans. Those who think Woffinden ranks right up there have consistently said PC ranks right up there (both of them) and there is a good argument for them to be considered as good. The PC fans constantly keep coming up with points they feel 'proves' why PC was better. As yet every single one of those points has been a failure. "Woffinden has access to better equipment, it wasn't like that in PC's day".. It actually turns out that in his World Final win PC had a completely different engine (4 valve) to much of the field and a massive advantage! A point furthered by Simmons and Crump filling the rostrum. Woffinden's rivals are all on the same machinery. "PC dominated his rivals more than Woffinden does'.. again proven wrong by Waiheke. 'PC faced more top riders than Woffinden does now because of all the 10pters'... this comedy statement proved wrong with ease. That's just a few, there have been more. That's the reason why the thread has gone on so long. So to finish, I again re-iterate, I and I believe most others are certainly NOT questioning the right to hold the opinion that Peter Collins was the best Brit ever. I may not necessarily agree but it's not something that can be definitively proven either way. By the general measuring sticks used Woffinden is ahead, but that is all they are, general measuring sticks. I think some people should feel blessed to have seem them both at their peaks (and some all three including Craven!). Edited October 23, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, MARK246 said: Didn't the scoring mean second and third won, there was no reason for any other rider to beat him. Perhaps the reason he was so dominant was other rides understood the rules No, only in the Grand Final or a tie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, MARK246 said: Didn't the scoring mean second and third won, there was no reason for any other rider to beat him. Perhaps the reason he was so dominant was other rides understood the rules Second and third only won in the final. Woffinden was unbeaten in the first leg, in which finishing second and third was irrelevant. I think sometimes people just don't want to see what is right in front of them so refuse to believe what is staring them in the face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, MARK246 said: Didn't the scoring mean second and third won No. The scoring meant that whoever was fourth didn't win... Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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