Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[fatface]

3 hours ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

Hmmm.

Many - like me - will never find themselves in the position of questioning Peter Collins as one of Britain's best ever. He was a great rider and few of his rivals could do some of the things he could do on a bike. But if we scrutinise in the same way Tai Woffinden's achievements and abilities are being scrutinised....then it's only fair to highlight that the arrival of the four valve Weslake in PC's World Final win was a factor in his - and indeed Malcolm Simmons's success - whilst the majority - including Mauger - were still aboard two valve Jawas. He also won a final in which the reigning champion and his biggest rival Olsen was missing, due to an engine failure and controversial exclusion at the Intercontinental

Neither of which is to say PC would not have won that day.  But if we are going to be scrupulous, let's be equally so with PC as we are with Tai Woffinden. 

[Grachan]

3 hours ago, Aces51 said:

The difference is that Collins passed world class riders and left them for dead. If you had watched PC in 1976/77 you would realise it wasn't that he had better quality equipment than everyone else, others had just as good. He was just that outstanding when given a track with racing lines. At that time he was the best in the world, just as Tai is at the moment.

I'm sure I remember PC saying in an interview that the bike he had in 1976 was so fast that he deliberately disguised it during practice - taking bad lines and so on - so that nobody would see how fast he was.

 

[Steve Shovlar]

Not sure how you can compare Collins to Woffinden. As a neutral who has seen both ride, there is no comparison. Woffinden is head and shoulders above Collins.

Back in the 70’s the standard was lower in the World Final compared to the GP series. Polish and eastern block riders were making up the numbers.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

Wyer was world class in 1976. He finished 6th in the penultimate qualifier for the final, the Intercontinental Final, ahead of Autrey, John Louis, Michanek, Sanders, Olsen and other world class riders. In the final he finished 7th, above Autrey, Morton and Jancarz.

Stancl, you have more of an argument but he was good on the Polish tracks and finished 10th in the world, also above Morton and Jancarz.

As incredulous and utter nonsense as you may overly dramatically find it, I have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead as Collins did. Indeed the evidence you put forward shows him not being able to do that.

Like you with Collins, I am not disputing how good Woffinden is but I have not seen him in his best years to date dominate riders in the way that Collins did in his best years.  That isn't to say that he won't at some stage or that he won't sustain his career at the very top for longer than PC managed to do. 

Are you for real?

I've just shown you two races going from last to first, against the reigning World Champion and former World Champions in the other.

It's little wonder this thread descends into the farce it does when you took such utter bull.

So I take it back, it's not incredulous and utter nonsense for you to say you have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead... It is an outright lie. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by BWitcher

[Aces51]

Falcace, I put on a video of the 76 final because that was readily available on YouTube but those races were only examples of his season long dominance. Those who regularly watched PC in 76/77 and I assume you did, saw how dominant he was week in, week out. The British League at that time included the best riders in the world, just as the Polish league does now but PC was not often beaten whereasTai is regularly beaten in that league. My point is that at his best PC dominated his peers to a greater extent than Tai has so far done. That doesn't make him better than Tai because we are back to the point that you can't compare eras, there are too many variables.

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

I'm sure I remember PC saying in an interview that the bike he had in 1976 was so fast that he deliberately disguised it during practice - taking bad lines and so on - so that nobody would see how fast he was.

 

I think your right, I recall something like that being said but in truth his performance in that final was the way he rode throughout that season and the following year. 

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Are you for real?

I've just shown you two races going from last to first, against the reigning World Champion and former World Champions in the other.

It's little wonder this thread descends into the farce it does when you took such utter bull.

That's your opinion, not a fact and your comments are ironic when it's usually your supercilious posts that cause threads to descend into farce. Perhaps better you let those who can debate like adults discuss matters.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Aces51

[Aces51]

23 minutes ago, Steve Shovlar said:

Not sure how you can compare Collins to Woffinden. As a neutral who has seen both ride, there is no comparison. Woffinden is head and shoulders above Collins.

Back in the 70’s the standard was lower in the World Final compared to the GP series. Polish and eastern block riders were making up the numbers.

I think you've missed the point. I've pointed out that you can't compare eras and that I'm not discussing who is the better rider.

[Hodgy]

27 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Are you for real?

I've just shown you two races going from last to first, against the reigning World Champion and former World Champions in the other.

It's little wonder this thread descends into the farce it does when you took such utter bull.

So I take it back, it's not incredulous and utter nonsense for you to say you have not seen Woffinden pass world class riders and leave them for dead... It is an outright lie. 

Why do you need to be so aggressive? Can’t you just debate a thread without the righteousness and insults? Lines 2 & 3 would have been an ideal forum response. The rest causes the thread to descend into the usual farce. 

[BWitcher]

16 minutes ago, Hodgy said:

Why do you need to be so aggressive? Can’t you just debate a thread without the righteousness and insults? Lines 2 & 3 would have been an ideal forum response. The rest causes the thread to descend into the usual farce. 

There is no sensible response when someone is talking nonsense. To try and claim that Woffiden has never left World class riders trailing is simply sheer lunacy.

You may tolerate idiocy, I don't. 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by BWitcher

[orion]

44 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

I think you've missed the point. I've pointed out that you can't compare eras and that I'm not discussing who is the better rider.

Of course you are.  you keep saying Collins was  the only rider  out of the two who can  leave class riders in his wake etc ..Thou quite clearly  Woffy does that Gp after Gp

[BWitcher]

47 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

 

That's your opinion, not a fact and your comments are ironic when it's usually your supercilious posts that cause threads to descend into farce. Perhaps better you let those who can debate like adults discuss matters.

Adults don't make things up to try and prove something.

You've posted a video showing Collins beating two half decent riders, nowhere near World Class. Not only that he is on VASTLY superior equipment as confirmed by several posters on there and also it seems by Collins himself. Yet you deny this and try to claim he had no mechanical advantage. 

You then spout the utter lie that you have never seen Woffinden pass and leave World Class riders for dead.

That's not an adult conversation. That's an argument fit for the childrens section. 

 

[BWitcher]

Woffinden passing and leaving WORLD CLASS riders for dead.. again.

 

[Aces51]

12 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Adults don't make things up to try and prove something.

You've posted a video showing Collins beating two half decent riders, nowhere near World Class. Not only that he is on VASTLY superior equipment as confirmed by several posters on there and also it seems by Collins himself. Yet you deny this and try to claim he had no mechanical advantage. 

You then spout the utter lie that you have never seen Woffinden pass and leave World Class riders for dead.

That's not an adult conversation. That's an argument fit for the childrens section. 

 

You really don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact and now I'm lying because you claim to  know what I've seen. 

I've expressed my opinion and I'm not at all concerned that you disagree. It's a pity you always find it necessary to try to make your point by resorting to abuse but that is unfortunately how you always respond to those who disagree with you.

I see now that you have managed to find one example, despite the mass TV coverage available, where Tai did pass one world class rider and leave him for dead. However, as you will have read in my previous posts I was referring to PC doing it regularly during his best years. You didn't see him live as I did and there is relatively little on YouTube, so either you accept what I say or you don't. I shan't lose any sleep about it.

Adults having expressed their opinions would agree to disagree but I suspect that is not in your character. We shall see.

 

[Aces51]

53 minutes ago, orion said:

Of course you are.  you keep saying Collins was  the only rider  out of the two who can  leave class riders in his wake etc ..Thou quite clearly  Woffy does that Gp after Gp

Perhaps you can read what I said before your comment.

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

Falcace, I put on a video of the 76 final because that was readily available on YouTube but those races were only examples of his season long dominance. Those who regularly watched PC in 76/77 and I assume you did, saw how dominant he was week in, week out. The British League at that time included the best riders in the world, just as the Polish league does now but PC was not often beaten whereasTai is regularly beaten in that league. My point is that at his best PC dominated his peers to a greater extent than Tai has so far done. That doesn't make him better than Tai because we are back to the point that you can't compare eras, there are too many variables.

 

[orion]

14 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

Perhaps you can read what I said before your comment.

 

I did and it's double dutch .. you keep saying Collins can do all  these things  what Woffy can't (even thou that is not true of course ) and then you say that   he's not  better than him . It's quite clear you think Collins is better than him and if that is your opinion stick to it even thou most of it is based on fiction 

 

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

You really don't understand the difference between an opinion and a fact and now I'm lying because you claim to  know what I've seen. 

I've expressed my opinion and I'm not at all concerned that you disagree. It's a pity you always find it necessary to try to make your point by resorting to abuse but that is unfortunately how you always respond to those who disagree with you.

 

 

It's a pity people have to make things up that are plainly false to try and prove a point. 

If you are SERIOUSLY for one moment trying to suggest that Woffinden has never passed World Class riders and left them for dead then quite frankly you haven't got a clue about speedway.

That is NOT an opinion. That is reality. He has done it on many, many occasions.

It isn't something to disagree on, it's not an opinion. If you don't understand that you simply do not belong in an adult conversation.

Again, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion that PC was better. That IS your opinion and you are entitled to it. Entirely different to your false claims that can and will be shown to be false.

Edited October 23, 2018 by BWitcher

[waiheke1]

Just want to point out that if the top 30 riders in the world are considered  "international class" then in the 70s PC would race such riders 3 times per domestic meeting, so for an 11pt average pc would beat such riders 2 out of 3 times.

Using the same definition, Tai I believe races such riders 8 times per meeting (5 rides). So with a similar success rate to Pc, and assuming also finishing once behind a team mate - given he races every heatvwith a top 30 rides- then a 9pt average would reflect an equal level of dominance to PC. Oh surprise, that's what he averages!

There are arguments to support PC beimg better than Tai, but pretending Wyer and Stancl are better than the riders in todays GP, or that Tai rarely beats world class riders from the back doesnt help advance the argument. 

Tai probably does beat less riders from the back than PC, but I'd say that is less to do with his ability than the fact he is a better gater, superb round the first turn, and gets far less easy heats than PC 

And i say this as someone who grew up watching pc/Mott in ht13 each week, so it should be clear who my favourite rider of the two is.

[mikebv]

3 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Just want to point out that if the top 30 riders in the world are considered  "international class" then in the 70s PC would race such riders 3 times per domestic meeting, so for an 11pt average pc would beat such riders 2 out of 3 times.

Using the same definition, Tai I believe races such riders 8 times per meeting (5 rides). So with a similar success rate to Pc, and assuming also finishing once behind a team mate - given he races every heatvwith a top 30 rides- then a 9pt average would reflect an equal level of dominance to PC. Oh surprise, that's what he averages!

There are arguments to support PC beimg better than Tai, but pretending Wyer and Stancl are better than the riders in todays GP, or that Tai rarely beats world class riders from the back doesnt help advance the argument. 

Tai probably does beat less riders from the back than PC, but I'd say that is less to do with his ability than the fact he is a better gater, superb round the first turn, and gets far less easy heats than PC 

And i say this as someone who grew up watching pc/Mott in ht13 each week, so it should be clear who my favourite rider of the two is.

Common sense at last...

Well done, great post...

Both superb riders...

One fantastic from the start who can pass riders using a very smooth technique, and seems to set up the move strategically well before the almost inevitable execution of it..

The other, not so good from the start, more animated physically on the bike, finding extra grip that no one else could, in areas of the track not many ventured to use, meaning he had a more 'raw' technique, but one he used it to pass riders like it was shelling peas..

Both great to watch in their way and for me, Tai, given his greater starting technique, would have the edge between the two..

But only just though...

In my fantasy match race he would end up beating PC by the width of a tyre after leading by 20 yards or so after the first lap...

 

 

 

[g13webb]

Of all the speedway periods I have watched, I do believe the 70's and 80's were the most enjoyable. but also the most defining time of bike technology    Racing then was so different where the emphasis was more on the rider than on the bike.   Racing was closer and more exciting,  and because the UK was the centre of the speedway world, every decent rider raced here regularly for various teams...       There is nowhere in the world that has the variation of tracks like we have here in England,  and that has a massive bearing when comparing riders of today against those of yesteryear.  

Once upon a time  a good rider could get on any bike and win,  but not now.  The machinery now has so much importance .A poor rider can  get on a quick bike and make himself look good. Todays bikes  are high revving speed machines that require a totally different skill than those of the past.   coupled that, to the track design,  helps to make speedway today  so much faster, and processional.  . So when trying to compare Woffy with riders from the past,  comparisons can only be based on ones opinions,  

PC was an exceptional rider, in his time.   He was the first British rider to compete with the top boys of the world and bring joy to the home fans.    He was the first one to wrestle supremacy away from Sweden, Denmark,  and  New Zealand,   and led the way for the influx of many  British riders...   PC singled the start of British domination in world speedway.   I always felt he deserved more than his solitary  crown , and no doubt had it not been for injury he would have won more...       Racing on these shores every week  made him more of a household name and the big crowds appreciated his cavalier style.    non more so than SOLDIER BOY...….. 

I do believe, now a married man and a father,  Woffy has grown into a more responsible person. this has shown in his riding . Determined and calculated, Woffy has all the attributes to be one of the all time greats.   Always fast and daring, missing the gate is not normally a problem.   If he stays injury free I see no reason why Woffy cant win even more World Championships.

Can't blame him for riding on the continent against his fiercest rival , but its hard for home fans to miss out on seeing him every week.   No doubt its much easier riding those tailor made tracks instead of the more difficult one here.   

So to conclude on who was best in my opinion.    I'm going to go for PC,     He was one of the few riders that worried Michael Lee.   and that says a lot in my book... 

 

[OveFundinFan]

9 hours ago, Grachan said:

I'm sure I remember PC saying in an interview that the bike he had in 1976 was so fast that he deliberately disguised it during practice - taking bad lines and so on - so that nobody would see how fast he was.

 

Correct.  But Simmo was on a 4 valve Weslake as well and PC sailed past him. I was there in Katowice in September 1976 and no one was going to stop PC winning, he came from the back and he won from the gate. Only point he dropped was when it didn’t matter (his last race) and why take on Mauger when all PC needed was 2 points. Job done - fantastic day, and the only world final I seen live abroad. We went for one reason, to see PC win. He didn’t let us down.

And as I remember just a few weeks back Zmarzlik had THE rocket ship of the meeting at the last round in Toruń but still couldn’t win the meeting, in fact he didn’t  qualify for the final. This shows you may have the fastest bike but you still need to be able to do the winning.

No doubt TW is a great rider, but it’s too difficult to judge the “best Brit ever” when comparing across different eras. PC was the best Brit of his era, and TW is the best Brit of his era by a long long way - he don’t have much to challenge him, but he is also class on the world scene.

[Grachan]

8 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Correct.  But Simmo was on a 4 valve Weslake as well and PC sailed past him. I was there in Katowice in September 1976 and no one was going to stop PC winning, he came from the back and he won from the gate. Only point he dropped was when it didn’t matter (his last race) and why take on Mauger when all PC needed was 2 points. Job done - fantastic day, and the only world final I seen live abroad. We went for one reason, to see PC win. He didn’t let us down.

And as I remember just a few weeks back Zmarzlik had THE rocket ship of the meeting at the last round in Toruń but still couldn’t win the meeting, in fact he didn’t  qualify for the final. This shows you may have the fastest bike but you still need to be able to do the winning.

No doubt TW is a great rider, but it’s too difficult to judge the “best Brit ever” when comparing across different eras. PC was the best Brit of his era, and TW is the best Brit of his era by a long long way - he don’t have much to challenge him, but he is also class on the world scene.

I was there too, by the way. I don't think there can be any disputing that PC was a better rider than Malcolm Simmons - good as Simmo was. The general feeling on that trip too was that we were going to Poland to watch Peter Collins become World Champion.

Interesting that there was a mix of 2 valves and 4 valves in that meeting. Phil Crump would also have been on a 4 valve obviously - and came third despite being a serial under-performer in World Championships.

Another rider who looked exceptionally fast was Egon Muller. So fast, perhaps, that he couldn't handle the speed!