Barney Rabbit Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 1987 in Amsterdam saw a third format for deciding the World Champion, each rider having 5 rides on two consecutive days. After day 1, Sam Ermolenko was leading with 13 points from 5 rides but the eventual winner was Hans Neilsen with a 15 point max to add to his 12 from the previous day, Sam dropping back to fourth over-all with 24 points. Doesn't make much difference to the discussion but I can't remember it being mentioned yet so thought I'd just mention it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: 1987 in Amsterdam saw a third format for deciding the World Champion, each rider having 5 rides on two consecutive days. After day 1, Sam Ermolenko was leading with 13 points from 5 rides but the eventual winner was Hans Neilsen with a 15 point max to add to his 12 from the previous day, Sam dropping back to fourth over-all with 24 points. Doesn't make much difference to the discussion but I can't remember it being mentioned yet so thought I'd just mention it now. There'll be somebody to tell you Tai wouldn't have been able to win this either 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 1951 Jack Young 12 points 55 Peter Craven 13 pts 56 Ove Fundin 13 pts 72 Ivan May get 13 pts 73 Jerzy Szczakiel 13 pts 78 Ole Olsen 13 pts 85 Erik Gundersen 13 pts 90 Per Jonsson 13 pts 93 Sam Ermolenko 12 pts 94 Tony Rickardsson 12 pts 28 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: It would be interesting if someone was able to provide stats on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MARK246 said: 1951 Jack Young 12 points 55 Peter Craven 13 pts 56 Ove Fundin 13 pts 72 Ivan May get 13 pts 73 Jerzy Szczakiel 13 pts 78 Ole Olsen 13 pts 85 Erik Gundersen 13 pts 90 Per Jonsson 13 pts 93 Sam Ermolenko 12 pts 94 Tony Rickardsson 12 pts And of those finals, how many could still have won it after 8 heats? And another question for you while you're researching... Would it have been possible to have won a World Final with 5 seconds equaling 10pts? Edited October 18, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, iainb said: And of those finals, how many could still have won it after 8 heats? And another question for you while you're researching... Would it have been possible to have won a World Final with 5 seconds equaling 10pts? I don't have the stats for the first question, sorry. You couldn't win a one off final on 10 points with out winning a run off. So under the old system you needed to win a race unlike the GPs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 54 minutes ago, MARK246 said: When you have a world championship which can be won without winning a race ( second is good enough) it will always have it's detractors. The fact that to qualify for the system, you use a 5 ride meeting which requires a totally different approach (win at all cost) makes it all seem a total farce. I wonder if it is possible to win a one-off 20 heat meeting with 5 second places. My guess is you couldn't do it, or would at least need to win a run-off, but it would be interesting to see if it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, MARK246 said: I don't have the stats for the first question, sorry. You couldn't win a one off final on 10 points with out winning a run off. So under the old system you needed to win a race unlike the GPs Looks like you answered my question before I asked it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 23 minutes ago, MARK246 said: 1951 Jack Young 12 points 55 Peter Craven 13 pts 56 Ove Fundin 13 pts 72 Ivan May get 13 pts 73 Jerzy Szczakiel 13 pts 78 Ole Olsen 13 pts 85 Erik Gundersen 13 pts 90 Per Jonsson 13 pts 93 Sam Ermolenko 12 pts 94 Tony Rickardsson 12 pts And how many of those were on 3 or 4 points after 2 rides (if any)...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, MARK246 said: I don't have the stats for the first question, sorry. You couldn't win a one off final on 10 points with out winning a run off. So under the old system you needed to win a race unlike the GPs And what would have happened if they'd both had touched the tapes or had engine failure lol? I've seen races with no finishers before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 17 minutes ago, MARK246 said: I don't have the stats for the first question, sorry. You couldn't win a one off final on 10 points with out winning a run off. So under the old system you needed to win a race unlike the GPs Of course it could be won on 10 points without a run off A very unlikely scenarion but not matmatically impossible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 42 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: 1987 in Amsterdam saw a third format for deciding the World Champion, each rider having 5 rides on two consecutive days. After day 1, Sam Ermolenko was leading with 13 points from 5 rides but the eventual winner was Hans Neilsen with a 15 point max to add to his 12 from the previous day, Sam dropping back to fourth over-all with 24 points. Doesn't make much difference to the discussion but I can't remember it being mentioned yet so thought I'd just mention it now. Wasn’t there a 4th or should really be a second,as pre-war riders took quali points into a Wembley final and the rider that won the final wasn’t crowned champ,but the rider with the most quali+ final points.Think the same was due to happen in the final that never took place due to the outbreak of the war Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Of course it could be won on 10 points without a run off A very unlikely scenarion but not matmatically impossible Could it? I can't be bothered to do the maths tbh, but I agree I think it could... But just as unlikely as it is today for somebody to win the championship without winning a GP round as has only been done once in nearly 25 years when there were only 6 rounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, iainb said: Could it? I can't be bothered to do the maths tbh, but I agree I think it could... But just as unlikely as it is today for somebody to win the championship without winning a GP round as has only been done once in nearly 25 years when there were only 6 rounds The GP championship can be won with out winning a single race 70 races x2 pts is 140 pts Woffindens total this year 139 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, MARK246 said: The GP championship can be won with out winning a single race 70 races x2 pts is 140 pts Woffindens total this year 139 pts I reckon the lowest score you can win an old style world final on was 9 and then win a run off... Meaning it's possible to get 5 seconds to score 10 to beat that... I'm sure there's a mathematician out there who can prove me right! ... Not to mention progressing through all of the qualifying rounds without winning a race Edited October 18, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, iris123 said: Wasn’t there a 4th or should really be a second,as pre-war riders took quali points into a Wembley final and the rider that won the final wasn’t crowned champ,but the rider with the most quali+ final points.Think the same was due to happen in the final that never took place due to the outbreak of the war Correct. They added bonus points, calculated on a percentage performance basis, to those scored in the Final. These points were the rider's actual scores from his qualifying rounds worked out as a percentage of the max possible points he could have scored in those rounds divided by seven (the number of qualifying rounds there were). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Not really wanting to get into this,but can’t resist.... but didn’t one of the Poles ein the World U21 final on the toss of a coin, because the meeting was called off early?So in theory if the rules were the same,it could be possible a meeting is cut short and a rider or two that haven’t won a heat are tied with one who has and by the toss of the coin one who hasn’t won a heat wins the world final!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, iris123 said: Not really wanting to get into this,but can’t resist.... but didn’t one of the Poles ein the World U21 final on the toss of a coin, because the meeting was called off early?So in theory if the rules were the same,it could be possible a meeting is cut short and a rider or two that haven’t won a heat are tied with one who has and by the toss of the coin one who hasn’t won a heat wins the world final!!! KK I think (The worst ever WU21 Champ, that's a whole new thread ) Edited October 18, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, iainb said: KK I think That is who I thought of as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, iainb said: I reckon the lowest score you can win an old style world final on was 9 and then win a run off... Meaning it's possible to get 5 seconds to score 10 to beat that... I'm sure there's a mathematician out there who can prove me right! Which means you could also go through the entire qualifying system and win the final without winning a single race. In fact, it could even be to your advantage to get a low score in some qualifying rounds as it helped your draw in the next round - a tactic Ivan Mauger used to use quite often. Of course nobody has won a World Championship in either format without winning a race and are never likely to - but it seems it is mathematically possible in both. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 55 minutes ago, iainb said: I reckon the lowest score you can win an old style world final on was 9 and then win a run off... Meaning it's possible to get 5 seconds to score 10 to beat that... I'm sure there's a mathematician out there who can prove me right! ... Not to mention progressing through all of the qualifying rounds without winning a race You could win with 9 And no run off. It leaves 111 points from 15 riders, so you could have 6 scoring 8, 9 scoring 7. Or a variety of possible combinations. Technically you could win with 4 points being two second places. Beaten in two races, with the other 18 heats having no finishers. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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