burton1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I've seen him ride countless times and I have't once said he wasn't a brilliant rider. However, you've now posted three times but are still to come up with a single reason why Gundersen is so far ahead of Woffinden... and seemingly now Rickardsson too. OK how many world team cup and world pairs gold medals as woffinden won? Just a straight answer please no b@llocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, burton1 said: OK how many world team cup and world pairs gold medals as woffinden won? Just a straight answer please no b@llocks Is that the best you can do, seriously? Already covered all of this, team and pairs medals are pretty irrelevant as they depend upon your partner and team mates. Unless you think Woffinden wouldn't have won any pairs with Nielsen as a partner or team events with the other Danes like Pedersen, Knudsen etc.. and Gundersen would with riders such as Harris/Cook/Lambert/King etc. Stephen Nzonzi is a better footballer than Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo etc based upon your logic. After all, how many World Cup winners medals do they have? So again, still waiting for a reason as to why Gundersen is so far ahead of Woffinden AND Rickardsson. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burton1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Is that the best you can do, seriously? Already covered all of this, team and pairs medals are pretty irrelevant as they depend upon your partner and team mates. Unless you think Woffinden wouldn't have won any pairs with Nielsen as a partner or team events with the other Danes like Pedersen, Knudsen etc.. and Gundersen would with riders such as Harris/Cook/Lambert/King etc. So again, still waiting for a reason as to why Gundersen is so far ahead of Woffinden AND Rickardsson. Never mentioned tony once,Erik won 3 world titles ,2 long track world titles,12 pairs and team cup gold medals,and for his injury would have won many more,also Erik was a much better gated than woffinden . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Just now, burton1 said: Never mentioned tony once,Erik won 3 world titles ,2 long track world titles,12 pairs and team cup gold medals,and for his injury would have won many more,also Erik was a much better gated than woffinden . Have you never seen Rickardsson ride then? You've stated that Gundersen and Nielsen are the best riders you have EVER seen ride by a Country Mile. So that's basically every top riders since the 80's assuming you've been watching the sport that long. So Erik won 3 World Titles. Woffinden has 3. That's the only relevant information you've provided. Erik may have won more.. Woffinden may well win more. Erik's a better gater.. guess that means Woffindens a better racer then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry1603 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Tai Woffinden is an exceptional rider who is certainly a worthy multiple world champion in the current era. Good luck to him and he has achieved more than he (probably) thought he would. I don't personally think that he is a genuine all time great, but that's not his problem - he's proved that he can be consistently good at the top level in current times. Would he be as dominant if he had six to ten genuine world title contenders (as opposed to a couple) like the Nielsens / Gundersens / Collins / Penhall had, I'm not so sure, but it's all a matter of opinion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Garry1603 said: Tai Woffinden is an exceptional rider who is certainly a worthy multiple world champion in the current era. Good luck to him and he has achieved more than he (probably) thought he would. I don't personally think that he is a genuine all time great, but that's not his problem - he's proved that he can be consistently good at the top level in current times. Would he be as dominant if he had six to ten genuine world title contenders (as opposed to a couple) like the Nielsens / Gundersens / Collins / Penhall had, I'm not so sure, but it's all a matter of opinion. He has just as many 'genuine' World Title contenders, if not more. I don't see six to ten 'genuine World Title contenders' in the 85 World Final for instance. I mean Ermolenko, someone not even riding in Europe managed to tie for 1st place! Kai Niemi 4th?? Don't see anywhere near six to ten in 84 either.. Lance King 3rd? Mitch Shirra 5th? Bo Petersen? Karl Maier? Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garry1603 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, BWitcher said: He has just as many 'genuine' World Title contenders, if not more. Don't see many of the current GP riders being able to be consistent enough to win over a season - but in a one off world final there were often around ten riders who 'could' put it together in one night. Most of the current GP riders can win a GP. but very few are professional enough to do what Tai / Greg do which is to be consistent and win a championship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Garry1603 said: Don't see many of the current GP riders being able to be consistent enough to win over a season - but in a one off world final there were often around ten riders who 'could' put it together in one night. Most of the current GP riders can win a GP. but very few are professional enough to do what Tai / Greg do which is to be consistent and win a championship There certainly weren't anywhere near ten in 84-85 as already illustrated. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, BWitcher said: He has just as many 'genuine' World Title contenders, if not more. I don't see six to ten 'genuine World Title contenders' in the 85 World Final for instance. I mean Ermolenko, someone not even riding in Europe managed to tie for 1st place! Kai Niemi 4th?? Don't see anywhere near six to ten in 84 either.. Lance King 3rd? Mitch Shirra 5th? Bo Petersen? Karl Maier? As you probably already know, Erik is for me what Sam is for you, but you are spot on with your comments here. There was lots of talk around the 84 World Final about how it was very weak as a lot of the big names had been lost to the sport or were out injured...Penhall, Lee, Olsen, Carter and Sigalos are the ones that spring to mind but I'm sure there were others. Erik and Hans made that era their own, but it certainly wasn't the strongest period in speedway history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Indeed HW.. and tbf I have the utmost respect for both Erik and Hans. Riders you genuinely feared when at the tapes against your team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Garry1603 said: Tai Woffinden is an exceptional rider who is certainly a worthy multiple world champion in the current era. Good luck to him and he has achieved more than he (probably) thought he would. I don't personally think that he is a genuine all time great, but that's not his problem - he's proved that he can be consistently good at the top level in current times. Would he be as dominant if he had six to ten genuine world title contenders (as opposed to a couple) like the Nielsens / Gundersens / Collins / Penhall had, I'm not so sure, but it's all a matter of opinion. In a GP format from 84-89 they would have battled s Moran some years, Carter in 85, Jan o in 88. Reality is their genuine competition of the same era left the sport prematurely. Some other decent riders, but you would struggle to convince me that Knudsen, Tatum, Wigg,Ermolenko are significantly tougher than Safuydinov, Doyle, Zmarzlik, Janowski. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, moxey63 said: You probably didn't watch all the riders you're professing Woffinden to be better than. Yet again you tell everyone that you don't watch or follow speedway so how do you know ? Edited October 18, 2018 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 hours ago, waiheke1 said: In a GP format from 84-89 they would have battled s Moran some years, Carter in 85, Jan o in 88. Reality is their genuine competition of the same era left the sport prematurely. Some other decent riders, but you would struggle to convince me that Knudsen, Tatum, Wigg,Ermolenko are significantly tougher than Safuydinov, Doyle, Zmarzlik, Janowski. Don't forget Billy Sanders who was genuinely thought to be a threat in 1984 but failed at Gothenburg after a superlative effort in the previous year's World Pairs Final at the same venue. Billy was riding probably at his peak during 1984 and early 1985 before he tragically took his own life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, orion said: Yet again you tell everyone that you don't watch or follow speedway so how do you know ? OK, Einstein, we've already sussed that. But I must also add that although I don't sit and watch the speedway on whichever channel it's on, it is usually on in the background, so I am more in tune with someone who doesn't care. I also have the Speedway Star every week so at least I still care somewhat So, here's a question for all you would-be promoters looking to attract extra fans. Why do you tell people who don't have the same opinion as you to just go away? Isn't that why the terraces are so sparse and tracks will fold at an alarming rate over the next 10 years. Telling people who have 40-odd years' watching the sport to go away, their views don't count, we know best, is why, in part, we are where we are... I'm an idiot, I still have one toe of interest in there. Thousands took your advice, and there's a thread elsewhere asking why speedway is in such a state and its approaching yet another winter of crisis talks. Edited October 18, 2018 by moxey63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 9 hours ago, BWitcher said: There certainly weren't anywhere near ten in 84-85 as already illustrated. The way it felt from 84 until the end of the 80's was, effectively, is Hans Nielsen going to win or is he going to mess it up? And, if he messed it up you pretty well knew that Erik Gundersen would win instead, even though Nielsen was obviously the better rider. There were no other serious contenders a few years there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, Grachan said: The way it felt from 84 until the end of the 80's was, effectively, is Hans Nielsen going to win or is he going to mess it up? And, if he messed it up you pretty well knew that Erik Gundersen would win instead, even though Nielsen was obviously the better rider. There were no other serious contenders a few years there. Serious contenders (only those that made the final): 84 Billy Sanders 85 Sam Ermolenko 86 Tommy Knudsen, Kelvin Tatum, Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 87 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 88 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jan O Pedersen, Per Jonsson 89 Tommy Knudsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jeremy Doncaster You could permutate all the above names through all the above years as in the old style lottery qualification not all of these quality riders made all of the finals 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, Grachan said: The way it felt from 84 until the end of the 80's was, effectively, is Hans Nielsen going to win or is he going to mess it up? And, if he messed it up you pretty well knew that Erik Gundersen would win instead, even though Nielsen was obviously the better rider. There were no other serious contenders a few years there. So true! As a big Chris Morton fan, I remember the 1984 BLRC well. He, Nielsen and Gundersen were set up for the three rider run off. Before the race, my folks said; “right, we just need to pray for Gundersen to touch the tapes and Nielsen to pack up”. And so it came to pass...and there was great joy from the Belle Vuenians all across the Hyde Road lands :-) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, iainb said: Serious contenders (only those that made the final): 84 Billy Sanders 85 Sam Ermolenko 86 Tommy Knudsen, Kelvin Tatum, Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 87 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 88 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jan O Pedersen, Per Jonsson 89 Tommy Knudsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jeremy Doncaster You could permutate all the above names through all the above years as in the old style lottery qualification not all of these quality riders made all of the finals The only rider there that I would possibly consider as a serious contender would be Billy Saunders in 1984 - and that was only before the meeting as the Nielsen/Gundersen era quickly evolved. I was a dedicated Swindon fan, but wouldn't really consider Jimmy Nilsen as one until, maybe, 1990 - and Per Jonsson soon put a stop to that. It really was all about Hans and Erik for those 5 or 6 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, iainb said: Serious contenders (only those that made the final): 84 Billy Sanders 85 Sam Ermolenko 86 Tommy Knudsen, Kelvin Tatum, Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 87 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen 88 Sam Ermolenko, Jimmy Nilsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jan O Pedersen, Per Jonsson 89 Tommy Knudsen, Simon Wigg, Kelvin Tatum, Jeremy Doncaster You could permutate all the above names through all the above years as in the old style lottery qualification not all of these quality riders made all of the finals 84&85 S Moran was the real threat. Sanders was fancied by some in 84. Ermolenko would have been probably 12tg favourite of the 16 finalists in 85! 86 neither Tatum or Nielsen were expected to trouble the Danes 87/88 Maybe Sam and Jan O. At a push Tatum in 88 Not convinced by any of those for 89. And over a full gp season? Moran in 84/85, Carter 85, Jan o 88. That's it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 42 minutes ago, Grachan said: The way it felt from 84 until the end of the 80's was, effectively, is Hans Nielsen going to win or is he going to mess it up? And, if he messed it up you pretty well knew that Erik Gundersen would win instead, even though Nielsen was obviously the better rider. There were no other serious contenders a few years there. 84&85 S Moran I believe was favourite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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