BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Midland Red said: I don't believe I ever mentioned riders' averages - do try and keep track of who you're discussing with! And . . . are you really convinced that you haven't stated any opinion? I thought it was your opinions against the world! There is no doubt that Tai has won three individual titles - fact Opinions vary as to whether he is the best British rider of all time, and will continue to vary - you have yours (despite your apparent denial) and others have theirs The several personal comments you have made on this particular thread over the days to various members do you a disservice as you try to bring us all round to your way of thinking You may be right with your opinions - but that, at the end of the day, is all that they are And yet again you post the same utter nonsense. Opinions aren't being questioned. REASONING is and more significantly facts are being provided to show the reasoning is incorrect. Now, when shown that your reasoning is false/flawed, a normal sane person would be inclined to reconsider said opinion. I am not trying to bring you around to any way of thinking. I have simply, as have others, stated what is the truth. If you wish to continue to be ignorant and pig headed, go ahead. You've in an increasingly desperate attempt to justify your position have now moved onto claiming the following riders are better than Tai....Brian Brett, Peter Craven, Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Terry Betts, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg, Malcolm Simmons, John Louis, Dave Jessup, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum The reason you claim is because they didn't have access to the backup that Tai has mechanically. It has been pointed out to you that this is utterly irrelevant. They would have had access to the same resources as other riders of their era, just as Tai has the same access to other riders of his era. It has also been pointed out that MORE riders have access to the very best equipment now than in the past which basically renders your 'claim' redundant. In an attempt to give you a chance to validate your opinion I have asked you, What does Tai have access too that other riders he is against do not? You have chosen to ignore that question.. it speaks volumes. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 36 minutes ago, BWitcher said: You've already stated numerous times you don't even watch on TV. I don't need to even watch on Youtube to dismiss much of the nonsense you come out with... the multiple 10pt riders being the perfect case. I'm still waiting to here about all the times genuine World Title contenders were eliminated in the British Final stage? Come on, you keep talking about it.. let's hear the list. Jessup qualified from British final every year 77-82. Lee qualified every year from 77-83 except for 82. PC qualified every year from 73-80, except for the infamous 78. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Go on, I'll keep him busy for another minute or so. When you have ridden your career on what type of machine and then, after a decade or so of professional retirement get on a completely different entity, it will be harder. It could be like writing with your other hand, driving on the wrong side of the road or using a left-hand drive vehicle. Bless. It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers. Modern bikes are far more volatile and unpredictable when a rider gets out of shape especially. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 28 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Go on, I'll keep him busy for another minute or so. When you have ridden your career on what type of machine and then, after a decade or so of professional retirement get on a completely different entity, it will be harder. It could be like writing with your other hand, driving on the wrong side of the road or using a left-hand drive vehicle. Chris Louis has also been vocal about how the modern machine rides He has regularly ridden to test since his retirement and it isnt that it is simply harder for him to ride due to not doing it professionally anymore He has said that the characteristics with the way the engines rev are now full throttle or nothing. Old fashioned throttle control simply doesnt work as it did before hence riders becoming 'passengers' at times now in difficult situations and this despite their skills not the lack of skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 hours ago, moxey63 said: Tatum would say that. He finished his career before the modern machines came about and it is al new to him, plus the few pounds he's added and age of course. But eh, if Kelvin says it... let's take it as read, despite constantly criticising what he and Nigel spout on about on a weekly basis. But if it backs your opinion, let's go for it. That's wrong moxey, KT was still riding well into the modern machine era, still riding for arena in 2004... And being an engine tuner I would also suggest on pretty fast engines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, moxey63 said: How is it strengthening Tai's case? As I said, Tai is the best British rider since he won the first title. You can't doubt that. But the competition has never been so weak. I know, I keep saying it. Ok I'll bite. With all the watching on tv you do. What is it that makes you think the Gordeevs were better than Safuydinov and Laguta? Stancl better than Zagar? P Crump better than Doyle? Plech Jancarz,Cieslak and Rembas better than Zmarzlik, Janowski, Dudek and Pawliki. Autrey better than Hancock. Simmons, Louis Mort Wyer vs Lindgren, Holder,Vaculik Cook i csn see arguments. And Ican concede Mauger vs Nicki P. But I'm hoping you can enlighten me on the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, BWitcher said: In an attempt to give you a chance to validate your opinion I have asked you, What does Tai have access too that other riders he is against do not? You have chosen to ignore that question.. it speaks volumes. Answer = probably nothing. Tai is World Champion (OOFC version) and clearly is the best in 2018. Never disputed that. Don't twist things your way. The riders I listed, I suggested they were names of some of a number of British riders who might well have been better riders than Tai - but we will never know, therefore it cannot be stated as A FACT that he is the best British rider of all time If pushed, I would think Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Kenny Carter and Peter Collins WERE better than Tai - but we will never know, because circumstances and conditions have changed so much There is NO FACT to prove that Tai is a better rider than those four It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Answer = probably nothing. Tai is World Champion (OOFC version) and clearly is the best in 2018. Never disputed that. Don't twist things your way. The riders I listed, I suggested they were names of some of a number of British riders who might well have been better riders than Tai - but we will never know, therefore it cannot be stated as A FACT that he is the best British rider of all time If pushed, I would think Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Kenny Carter and Peter Collins WERE better than Tai - but we will never know, because circumstances and conditions have changed so much There is NO FACT to prove that Tai is a better rider than those four It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions? Now you are stating an opinion, that is fair enough. I haven't twisted anything my way. You made the claim.. you now can't back it up and it turns out the claim was false. So no we're just left you with you and your opinion with absolutely no reasoning behind it. It's a convincing argument. By the way, I'm a better rider than anyone you've mentioned plus Mauger, Rickardsson, Nielsen, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 When it seemed arguments could not get any weaker... Number of goals conceded by a goalkeeper have never been considered the true barometer of a goalkeepers ability. The world individual championship of speedway is typically considered the key indicator of a rider's ability, especially in the gp era. Are u really trying yo compare the two? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Midland Red said: It is similar to an article I read this morning which states that Allison Becker (Liverpool) is the best goalkeeper in the Premier League this season - number of goals conceded suggest this, but I doubt that many would have an opinion that he is better than some of the others around - do the facts (goals conceded) outweigh opinions? Opinions are worthless without something to back it up. I haven't seen the article, but goals conceded wouldn't be the strongest claim to being the best goalkeeper, nowhere close. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Would add at least we are now in realms of sensiblesness. PC x2 And Lee I can at leastcsee arguments as to why they might be considered better than Woffy. Carter I'm struggling tbh, and this is as one of the biggest admirers of his ability. Only in 82 could u argue he was the best rider in the world. Tai has been 3 times. I'm certainly not convinced the standard of competition in 82 was higher than today. And Carter at his peak had arguably the quickest bikes in the world, which seems to contradict esrlier arguments about Woffy mechanical advantage... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Bless. It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers. But they didn't have a 15-year gap away from racing and then have a go on the latest machine. Of course, you'd notice the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, moxey63 said: But they didn't have a 15-year gap away from racing and then have a go on the latest machine. Of course, you'd notice the difference. No. Ermolenko was constantly riding/testing bikes. He also regularly rode his 93 World Final bike as well as a modern machine and could easily compare the two. I know as I had a conversation with him about it, on the night he beat Darcy Ward, from the back Edited: My apologies, I spoke to him about it after the Olympique, he beat Darcy the following year. Edited October 17, 2018 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Opinions are worthless without something to back it up. I haven't seen the article, but goals conceded wouldn't be the strongest claim to being the best goalkeeper, nowhere close. Totally agree - I'm only the "messenger" here, never touted it as my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, BWitcher said: Bless. It might make sense if it wasn't for the fact that both Tatum and Ermolenko rode on changing machinery throughout their careers. Modern bikes are far more volatile and unpredictable when a rider gets out of shape especially. Chris Louis said in an interview published today... “Are the bikes too fast? Not necessarily, but the characteristics of the bikes are all wrong. They are so unpredictable. Unless you are riding them flat out they can be problematic and as soon as you back off you’re in whole new territory.” 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 8 minutes ago, BluPanther said: Chris Louis said in an interview published today... “Are the bikes too fast? Not necessarily, but the characteristics of the bikes are all wrong. They are so unpredictable. Unless you are riding them flat out they can be problematic and as soon as you back off you’re in whole new territory.” Did the article also state Moxey says he is talking nonsense 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, BWitcher said: You see, in the adult world, intelligent people who have 'opinions' can back them up with solid sound reasoning. In cases where their reasoning is shown to be flawed, or quite simply wrong, they learn and change their opinion. Then there are idiots.. who simply repeat ad nauseam that it's their opinion regardless of having nothing at all to back it up and most importantly when their reasoning is shown to be wrong. Sounds a bit like religion 59 minutes ago, Midland Red said: Tai is World Champion (OOFC version) and clearly is the best in 2018. Never disputed that. Only because he scored the most aggregated points across the SGP series though... What about Leon Madsen who wasn't in the GP's... Or Rob Shuttleworth? Edited October 17, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 3 minutes ago, iainb said: Sounds a bit like religion I think there are some on here that would process things were much better back in the day when the earth was flat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) I don't get this argument really. So what if the equipment is different? Bikes have evolved right through from 1928 to the current day and will continue to do so. It has no bearing on the standards of the riders as all riders from each era ride the machinery of that era. If I was honest, I would say that the standard of rider in the 70s and 80s was probably higher - or at least there were more top riders - due to the popularity of the sport at that time giving it more strength in depth. Then again - the standard of rider from East Europe these days is probably a lot higher than it was back in the day. I think the fact that Greg Hancock began winning World titles again so late in his career indicates this as a possibility. Would George Foreman have won a Boxing World Championship in his 40s if he had fought someone the same standard of a young Muhammad Ali? Is Woffy the greatest British riders of all time? Possibly. I would say Craven, Collins and Lee would still give him a good run for that claim. One more World title would put it beyond doubt, though. I mean, one more and he is in the realms of Hans Nielsen and Barry Briggs. So, regardless of what era he is in, that would make it pretty undisputable. Mind you, he could probably win 7 titles and there are some people who would probably put him about level with Eric Broadbelt in the all-time list. But you can't please everyone. Edited October 17, 2018 by Grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Was the sport stronger in depth in the 80s? There were only 3 countries with any depth - England USA and Denmark. Sweden NZ and Australia had a couple of international/world class riders each at various points in the decade. Finland Germany and at a push Poland could argue the same. Poland's depth today is arguably better than England's was. Australia, Sweden, Denmark, England and Russia all have a nucleus of quality riders. Then the likes of USA Latvia Czech Slovakia and Slovenia all have one quality rider each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.