Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[Grachan]

3 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Using the weakest of riders in world final history doesn't mean the riders who won the meetings didn't deserve them. I mean, what about all the riders who didn't make the finals due to the lob-sided qualifying system back then? It was hard enough getting through the British Final and we had no Scott Nicholls able to take the title six or seven times, the line-up being that poor. As I said, I prefer to go on other aspects other than a rider pulling his all out in the top events. If it were a GP system in the 70s, imagine the top 16 riders in the field compared to now. I also raise the British League averages and the amount of 10-point men back then, but BWitcher would rather harp on about riders picking their own gates back then or team being full of journeymen.

You want 10+ riders? Simple. Merge the two leagues and use exactly the same ridrrs as rode in the UK this year and have a race format where the number ones meet only once.

All of a sudden, the likes of Josh Bates and Stefan Nielsen become third heatleaders. So most number ones are nailed on 10 point riders.

It doesn't make the league any stronger. It would actually be weaker teams than we have now.

[BWitcher]

53 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I bet the boys from the 60s, 70s and even 80s wish they could race on today's super-smooth tracks helped with all those gizmo additions to the bike that only add to make it like a Sunday afternoon snooze on the armchair, but also without the worry of falling off the seat and into a rock-solid fence and not a bouncy castle airfence like today.

Yes, I can understand why today's riders would appear to be better prepared. they have it so easy.

But I admire any rider, from all eras.

 

Yet riders such as Tatum say how much harder the modern machine is to ride.

So again, your argument fails you and strengthens that which you are arguing against.

Edited October 16, 2018 by BWitcher

[Midland Red]

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Oh dear god.

Once again you put forward an argument that actually only serves to counter what you are saying but is of course completely irrelevant.

What has Tai got 'at his disposal' that other riders do not? Absolutely nothing. It isn't common cry anymore for riders to maintain their bikes themselves, meaning it's a darn sight harder to get an advantage in that area as there are far more professional organised riders around.. compared to the past when the elite such as Mauger had a distinct advantage in their preparation. Well done on highlighting how much easier it was back in the day

As for your list of riders, you should try stand up comedy. We're now expected to believe Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum and others are better than Woffinden? There is one rider who makes the conversation, thats Peter Craven. The rest don't come into it.

 

 

 

 

Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions

I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects

[MARK246]

6 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions

I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects

What I would say is I'm glad I watched speedway when I did from 1967, there is little to excite anyone now in the sport. The Word Champion rides at my home club next season, another reason not to go. 

30 pages and I still wouldnt cross the road to watch him.

[waiheke1]

I would suggest that if you don't enjoy watching Woffy, Zmarzlik,Emil or the likes of Bewley and Lambert, then the issue isnt that the riders are not as exvitimg as they used to be but that you no longer enjoy the sport.

Which then baffles me as to why you would spend time on a speedway forum.

My favourite riders will always be Ross, Mort, PC, Smudger and the Moran brothers.  But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the riders of today.

I'm sure Bewitcher would argue that Ermolenko is the most exciting rider of all time. But he's not going to argue that that makes modern riders dull, or that Ronnie Correy was better than Greg Hancock 

[BWitcher]

36 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions

I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects

Here we go again.

I have not stated any opinion. It is not a matter to have an opinion on. A range of averages is determined by the size of league and the heat format used. No opinion is involved.

If you really don't understand that after it's been explained multiple times then the mind boggles....

[BWitcher]

20 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

What I would say is I'm glad I watched speedway when I did from 1967, there is little to excite anyone now in the sport. The Word Champion rides at my home club next season, another reason not to go. 

30 pages and I still wouldnt cross the road to watch him.

But you keep coming onto a forum to post about him. 

I guess you don't realise how stupid that makes you look!

[BWitcher]

5 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

I would suggest that if you don't enjoy watching Woffy, Zmarzlik,Emil or the likes of Bewley and Lambert, then the issue isnt that the riders are not as exvitimg as they used to be but that you no longer enjoy the sport.

Which then baffles me as to why you would spend time on a speedway forum.

My favourite riders will always be Ross, Mort, PC, Smudger and the Moran brothers.  But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the riders of today.

I'm sure Bewitcher would argue that Ermolenko is the most exciting rider of all time. But he's not going to argue that that makes modern riders dull, or that Ronnie Correy was better than Greg Hancock 

Woah Woah Woah, steady on here!

All modern riders are dull compared to Sudden Sam.. and as for Hancock being compared to Rocket Ronnie, Greg isn't fit to clean his boots

[orion]

52 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Quite clearly your opinions are totally correct and there is no need for me or anyone else to have any different opinions

I thank you for your educating me in this matter, and I look forward to digesting your opinions on further subjects

It's not  an opinion is a  fact ..I think it's been explained to the older fan a million times but they can't quite grasp it .

[waiheke1]

12 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Woah Woah Woah, steady on here!

All modern riders are dull compared to Sudden Sam.. and as for Hancock being compared to Rocket Ronnie, Greg isn't fit to clean his boots

That's just because you're argumentative, always right and won't let anyone else have an onion. FACT

[tyler42]

23 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

My favourite riders will always be Ross, Mort, PC, Smudger and the Moran brothers.  But it doesn't stop me from enjoying the riders of today.

I would agree 100%.... We all had our favourites when growing up "PC was mine" I am a London lad, so the only time i got to see him was at Wimbledon and the big meetings at White City.

I like you, love watching the top riders of today. Theres no doubt these top riders of today are just as talented on a speedway bike as the big guns of yesteryear. "just different eras" 

I think a lot of us oldies, do look back with rose tinted glasses. We had bigger crowds, bigger leagues and when you look at the state of British speedway today compared with then, its rather easy to get defensive when it gets criticised.

The British league of the 70's imo is the equivalent of the Polish extra ligua today. If they were only 8 teams back in the 70s like there is now in Poland. Could you imagine how strong it would have been. Unfortunately I think British speedway has run its course as an out and out professional sport. A massive shake up in the winter is the only thing that can save it. 

[BWitcher]

Just now, tyler42 said:

 

I think a lot of us oldies, do look back with rose tinted glasses. We had bigger crowds, bigger leagues and when you look at the state of British speedway today compared with then, its rather easy to get defensive when it gets criticised.

The British league of the 70's imo is the equivalent of the Polish extra ligua today. If they were only 8 teams back in the 70s like there is now in Poland. Could you imagine how strong it would have been. Unfortunately I think British speedway has run its course as an out and out professional sport. A massive shake up in the winter is the only thing that can save it. 

This is the point, nobody is criticising it.

The point is though, if the league was split up more back in those days, lets say with an 8 team top league and the other teams in lower leagues it wouldn't be remembered as being anywhere near as strong. 

 

[waiheke1]

Agree with most of that, though if there were only 8 teams in the BL in the 70s with the same pool of riders it would actually have made a number of posters on here think it was weaker! 

I disagree on the last sentence though - people have been saying that for years but speedway is still here. Don't disagree on the need for a major overhaul though.

Edited October 16, 2018 by waiheke1
Clarification

[waiheke1]

Edit: my post was in response to Tyler.  Didnt want to quote  the lengthy post in full

[BWitcher]

31 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Edit: my post was in response to Tyler.  Didnt want to quote  the lengthy post in full

I got there after a few seconds mulling over what my re-reading my last sentence a couple of times

I agree people have been saying it for years in relation to British speedway but I do think it is rapidly approaching a critical point. It's very very sad. From a Wolves point of view, in another time we'd be sitting there with the World No 1 and 3 in our ranks. Now.. well.. there are some who think it makes no difference to the crowds, the ever increasing gaps at Monmore say otherwise.

[sommelier]

Tai the best ever, in this era I would say yes. ALL time best ever hard to say, me personally from watching speedway from 1968, such a list of who could argue the best ever. I would have to put Mauger & Olsen right up the top of the list. Then you can look at Hans & Eric in the next batch of riders, how many more WC was left in Eric ? I certainly think a few more! Then the Rickardsson Crump era, one cannot deny the achievements of Tony that COULD make him the best EVER. But for me, the best ever rider to grace a speedway track would have to be Gollob

[chunky]

1 hour ago, sommelier said:

Tai the best ever, in this era I would say yes. ALL time best ever hard to say, me personally from watching speedway from 1968, such a list of who could argue the best ever. I would have to put Mauger & Olsen right up the top of the list. Then you can look at Hans & Eric in the next batch of riders, how many more WC was left in Eric ? I certainly think a few more! Then the Rickardsson Crump era, one cannot deny the achievements of Tony that COULD make him the best EVER. But for me, the best ever rider to grace a speedway track would have to be Gollob

Okay, I think you are misunderstanding this thread,but that is understandable with some of the stuff being posted here!

The thread was actually talking about Woffinden being the best ever BRITISH rider. Nobody is saying that he is up there with Mauger, Fundin, and Rickardsson. Yet!  That remains to be seen, and only time will tell, but his achievements on the world stage have clearly exceeded those of any other previous British rider.

Steve

[waiheke1]

Fair to say Woffy is knocking on the door of top 10 of all time though (imo).

Of the three times world champs id have him behind Crump and probably Olsen, but ahead of Gundersen and Nicki P. 

Ahead of all double world champs with possible exceptions of Young and Moore. And maybe ahead of Hancock. 

 

[IainB]

9 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

and won't let anyone else have an onion. 

I love onion's 

Edited October 17, 2018 by iainb

[moxey63]

11 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Yet riders such as Tatum say how much harder the modern machine is to ride.

So again, your argument fails you and strengthens that which you are arguing against.

Tatum would say that. He finished his career before the modern machines came about and it is al new to him, plus the few pounds he's added and age of course. But eh, if Kelvin says it... let's take it as read, despite constantly criticising what he and Nigel spout on about on a weekly basis. But if it backs your opinion, let's go for it.

On the other hand, Rob Ledwith returned to action without much trouble the other week, 10 points from four starts I believe, despite not having ridden speedway in 20 years or so. It would be interesting to see if he rode a modern bike or an older one. But it does make you think, why spend all the money on newfound improvements for the machines if they are only going to be harder to ride? Doesn't make sense.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by moxey63