Tai Woffinden Best Ever!?

[iris123]

2 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

Yes, Tai is probably the best British rider ever but all riders are products of their time.

Do Tai's 3 modern  day titles make him a better British rider than Craven?, or Hancock's 4 make him better American than Penhall or Rickardsson's 6 make him a better Swede than Fundin?.

Titles are one yardstick but not the only one.

My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before

[ColinMills]

5 hours ago, Skidder1 said:

Nice article and photo of Tai becoming 3 times World Champion in the Sun today. Not sure of any other national media coverage.

should check out daily star (cover speedway every Wednesday) full woffy page pic/story. he says he will retire on the podium when he smash their record on the 7th world championship

Edited October 8, 2018 by ColinMills

[Barney Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Grachan said:

I think you only have to see what he did on Saturday when the real pressure was on to get the answer to  that.

But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Barney Rabbit

[Grachan]

1 minute ago, Barney Rabbit said:

But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner.

 

 

But we'll never know how Zmarzlik or Laguta would have coped once the Championship was on the line either. Neither could pull it off once they had a victory in their sights.

[ColinMills]

4 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said:

But under the old system he would not have had the opportunity to do what he did when the real pressure was on because he would not have had those extra two rides. The meeting would have stopped after all riders had had five rides, Woffinden finishing third with ten points, five points behind the meeting winner.

 

 

there was a couple of stupid gp years where you packed up if third/fourth in first two rides, was also a time where you kept gate one..some GP rules been ridiculous

[tyler42]

4 hours ago, iainb said:

I didn't like your post I thought it was insulting to modern day riders, who are riding faster than ever before

You are entitled to not to like my post. Of course that is what the forum is for, but for you to abuse me is totally different. As i said earlier, you don't know me so please don't call me names.

Lets end this little discussion now if you don't mind. I don't have to defend my opinion to you or anyone else. My opinion is my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. There are lots of posts i don't agree with, but that is the posters opinion. I can challenge it if i want, but I would certainly not abuse someone for there opinions.

Thank you

[iris123]

1 hour ago, iris123 said:

My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before

Further to my theory on PC,i did a random check on how he went at my old club Wimbledon in 1956(the year he was reigning world champion)

In the opening meeting of the season he finished 6th on 9 pts,behind R.Moore,Briggo,A.Forrest,A.Wright and Ken Middleditch.Now the first few ok world class,but the last couple?

Then he rode in a best pairs and got beat by Crutcher,Ronnie Moore,Peter Moore,A.Wright,Briggo but did beat Fundin and Aub Lawson

Then in NL got beat by Briggo and Ronnie and also lost a Golden Helmet match race against Ronnie 2-0

Even at Belle Vue he then got beat by Briggo,P + R.Moore

At Plough Lane in the next match he got beat by Brine,P + R.Moore,but did win his heat against Maidment and reserve Goldfinch!!

In the next meeting at BV he was beaten by Hagon and How,then by Hagon and in his heat against Briggo and Ronnie Moore he fell

In the Laurels he was actually top scorer in the quails,only being beaten by Peter Moore,but was last in his semi final against P.Moore,Hunt and How

The next meeting at BV he got a max,so can take nothing away from him there

Then in the meeting at Plough Lane he was beaten by P.Moore then Ronnie beat him then Ronnie and Briggo beat him,then P.Moore beat him and he finished in front of Briggo!!then he beat Brine and How and then Ronnie beat him but he beat Peter

 

So really in a season when he was world champ he didn't have a very great set of results at Plough Lane and even at home wasn't really looking like a world champ 

Also looking at his appearances abroad in 4 WTC finals and he never was better than the 4th best scorer in any of those meetings!!!

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123

[tyler42]

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Every single rider past and present will tell you that.

Thats quite a broad statement to make. I know plenty of riders past, who would disagree with that statement

[ColinMills]

2 hours ago, moxey63 said:

But you have nothing to back up that standards are higher today, apart from me having to go and ask every rider past and present. I am going on what I see in results and rider careers. You can only compare like with like. When you take away Rickardsson (6 titles), Crump (3), and now Pedersen (3), championships become easier to win. We aren't talking decades ago, just 10 years. When those three riders either retired or began to demise, as Pedersen did, it allowed others in with a chance. Gollob won one, Holder (remember him), and then Hancock got back in there, Woffinden and even Doyle. It has become easier in just 10 years to win the GP. The real stars had left the building. The way it is now, Woffinden could easily do a Scott Nicholls in the British Championship and make Peter Collins' one win (in the World Final and British Final) seem pathetic. And we know it was harder back then, when every rider lived the same sort of lifestyles and were just as professional as each other and there were many more individual meetings to test the fact.

nail on head with british title....soo weak nowadays, would never got a second tier rider near Coventry in 70s

[iris123]

1 minute ago, ColinMills said:

nail on head with british title....soo weak nowadays, would never got a second tier rider near Coventry in 70s

National titles are no longer a mark of greatness.I think the rider with the most Danish final wins is Niels Kristian Iversen and that in the Nicki Pedersen era.Now nobody in their right mind will try to use those titles to suggest NKI is better than Nicki let alone Hans Nielsen and Ole Olsen

[Aces51]

1 hour ago, iris123 said:

My opinion is that is isn’t easy to compare 100%.We can point to the fact that PC died at a stage where it was still possible to win more titles.My one doubt about him was his very poor performance in Sweden.A different time,but Craven made some great performances in challenge meetins in Poland and Russia.But against Polish and Russian riders,who were good but not the best.Tai has proved himself around Europe and the world against the very best.There can be no doubt about his ability on various tracks.Not quite so sure because of Malmo,we can say the same about Craven and any British rider from that era or before

You're comparing apples and pears. Craven had very little experience of riding in Sweden. In the 50's and 60's speedway revolved around the UK and British riders rarely rode abroad, apart from winter trips to South Africa and Australia. Tai has literally grown up, in terms of his career, racing in Poland and Sweden.

I'm not sure about the point your trying to make in your later comments about Craven in the 1956 season. Tai was world champion in 2013, his UK average in 2014 was 7.03.

[iris123]

2 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

You're comparing apples and pears. Craven had very little experience of riding in Sweden. In the 50's and 60's speedway revolved around the UK and British riders rarely rode abroad, apart from winter trips to South Africa and Australia. Tai has literally grown up, in terms of his career, racing in Poland and Sweden.

I'm not sure about the point your trying to make in your later comments about Craven in the 1956 season. Tai was world champion in 2013, his UK average in 2014 was 7.03.

But Craven had a style that maybe wasn't equipped for other tracks abroad.His record seems to suggest he wasn't that great,at least in major finals.1 world individual and 4 WTc finals abroad

And the point I am making is more often than not in domestic meetings at or against Wimbledon Craven was beaten when he met the better riders.Hardly beat Briggo,Ronnie and Peter Moore all season,but did much better against the lesser riders.

Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123

[tyler42]

2 hours ago, iris123 said:

We have a hell of a lot of riders who have been riding speedway since they were 5,6 or 7 years old.That was pretty well unheard of 30 years ago.Riders started as teenagers generally.10 years of experience must pay dividends.That is without the fitness,diet,psychological aspects of modern sport

Nothing has changed really, This program was from the Junior grass track championships 1978

[fatface]

10 minutes ago, iris123 said:

National titles are no longer a mark of greatness.I think the rider with the most Danish final wins is Niels Kristian Iversen and that in the Nicki Pedersen era.Now nobody in their right mind will try to use those titles to suggest NKI is better than Nicki let alone Hans Nielsen and Ole Olsen

Larry Ross has won more NZ titles than Moore, Briggs and Mauger combined! Therefore.... 

[iris123]

4 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

Nothing has changed really, This program was from the Junior grass track championships 1978

Fair enough.I see the likes of Dean Barker and Havelock were 8 or 10 years old then.I didn't realise they started so early

[Barney Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Grachan said:

But we'll never know how Zmarzlik or Laguta would have coped once the Championship was on the line either. Neither could pull it off once they had a victory in their sights.

We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument.

Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know.

What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT

Edited October 8, 2018 by Barney Rabbit

[tyler42]

1 minute ago, iris123 said:

Fair enough.I see the likes of Dean Barker and Havelock were 8 or 10 years old then.I didn't realise they started so early

Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123.

Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day 

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said:

We're having facts, FACTS even, thrown at us to back up the pro argument but now conjecture is fine if facts hold up the anti argument.

Woffinden came a purler with nothing on the line - he had two further rides to get the points needed to finish in the top eight - so why should we suppose things would have been different if the ride was important. More pressure (at that time, anything that happened in a sixth or seventh ride is irrelevant) could have affected him adversely, we don't know.

What we do know is that, after five rides, Woffinden had not scored enough points to have won the Championship. FACT

You haven't provided a single fact to hold up the anti argument.

Saturday night was not a World Final. The World Champion was not decided by the first five races on Saturday night. The winner of the GP was not decided by the winner of the first five races on Saturday night.

As such your 'comparison' is irrelevant.

[BWitcher]

1 minute ago, tyler42 said:

Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123.

Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day 

This is true. The key difference doesn't lie in their early years as many riders with talent can reach a certain point.. it's what happens after that. In the modern era you have to dedicate yourself and be a lot more organised than in the past when your natural talent could get you further.

That said, those at the VERY top did go that extra mile for their era, hence why they were at the top, especially from Mauger onwards.

[iris123]

6 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

Most young British riders who rode speedway in the 80's did junior grass track iris 123.

Being an old Dons fan, do you not remember a Junior grass track held on Tooting Bec common back in the late 70's Both Luckhurst boys rode that day 

Don't remember that at all.I went to one grass track meeting in the mid 70s,but that was Kent or Surrey way.I do though remember we used to have the Kent junior grass track club do a second half each season.Think Dave Jessup turned out in one of those meetings.I was thinking Michael Lee was an excepetion starting out riding so young,but obviously my memory is going!!!

Edited October 8, 2018 by iris123