tyler42 Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, waiheke1 said: Is this the world final statement where you disputed the assertion thst world finals were won by riders nowhere near the best in the world? Surely that Is a fact. 73 and 83 Are the obvious examples. But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92. It's hard to name a gp world champion who "got lucky". Logan and Holder are arguably the "worst" gp champs but to win over a series it is hardly just luck..m Funny enough. If you were to have gone back a little, you would have seen i said the exact same thing about Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller Being the two who i thought were shock winners. Other posters thought to differ. Saying both riders were tipped to win said finals. As for Jessup being better than Lee that year. Sure Jessup won the British final and Commonwealth final, but they were qualifying rounds. The final was all that counted. Just like qualifying heats in GP's. It does not matter if you get 18 pts like Laguta did on Saturday. The final was the one that counted and TW won that even though he only scored 11 pts in the qualifying heats. Just to add, How many riders over the years have won a world final on just 11 pts? I know it does not matter because the GP system is what it is. Just like the one off world finals Were what they were. The list of world champions other than the two mentioned were all riders that were not shock winners. You say Havelock was not the best the year he won the final. He won the British final, 3rd in the Commonwealth final he won the the Overseas final and lost in a run off to Per Jonsson in the world semi-final and won the final on 14 pts. That is a better record of qualification than Jessups in 1980, but you say Jessup should have won the 80 final and you question Havelock's Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 hours ago, BWitcher said: If you would actually read what posts said you might make a little more sense. 3 hours ago, BWitcher said: Every argument they put forward is actually against them, they just don't realise it. They seem to think that because they 'enjoyed' the old system it was therefore better in every aspect. Reality is, like many, they don't like change and like things how they were. They'll also tell you that play offs are bad, who wants the excitement of a title being decided on one night, it should be over the season etc. Go back and read the post again, I have said nothing about what I believe is the 'fairest' way to decide a league championship. I must apologise, I read that completely it wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, tyler42 said: I keep hearing that todays riders have so much more skill? It sure takes a lot of skill to hold the bike flat out on a slick track for 4 laps!. With a nice little air fence added for extra protection! Just look what happen at a recent GP when there is a bit of dirt on the track. They had there little riders meetings and demanded to have all the dirt scraped off. If they are so skilful, surely they can ride in any conditions? There is a thing called a throttle and it can go both ways! Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! 8 hours ago, chunky said: The wild cards are generally riders who are considered worthy of a place in the GP's, particularly those who deprived of a spot by misfortune (eg Dudek, Vaculik, and Zagar). I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons 8 hours ago, waiheke1 said: But there are many others- Lee was never better than Jessup in 1980. Mauger wasn't best in the world in 79 (or 77). Havelock not in 92. Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? Edited October 8, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, iainb said: I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign. As for wildcards winning a World title.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, iainb said: Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! I wonder how many of the nominated wildcards over the years have gone on to win the world title... Or even rostrum? Most of the picks are done for financial reasons Havvy not the best in 92? You're joking right? Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round? Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Grachan said: Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round? Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller. Yep. But in fairness havvy was closer to being the best rider in the world in 92 than Muller in 83, who was surely behind Lee,Carter,Morton,Sigalos,Sanders Nielsen,Gundersen - but was tipped as a potential champ due to the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, waiheke1 said: Yep. But in fairness havvy was closer to being the best rider in the world in 92 than Muller in 83, who was surely behind Lee,Carter,Morton,Sigalos,Sanders Nielsen,Gundersen - but was tipped as a potential champ due to the track. Probably true, but his win was more of a surprise. There is a big difference from doing well in qualifiers than there is in actually winning the title. Muller had already proved his championship mentality with Long Track wins. His win never surprised me one bit. What did surprise me, though, was the indignation from British fans afterwards as if a non-BL rider had no right to be World Champion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign. As for wildcards winning a World title.... I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it 17 minutes ago, Grachan said: Didn't Tai win as a wildcard first time round? Havvy winning the World Title was probably the biggest shock result in my time at least. Much more so than Muller. I think he did... But they have been handing out wild cards for around 20 years now and that's the only one that springs to mind. I think they have got it the wrong way around, it should be 3 wildcards and more quali places Edited October 8, 2018 by iainb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 Nice article and photo of Tai becoming 3 times World Champion in the Sun today. Not sure of any other national media coverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, iainb said: I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it I watched the whole season and he was very good, but not the best in the world. He was nowhere near favorite for the World Final. It's all well and good quoting British Finals and Commonwealth Finals but he doesn't race his main rivals there. In his World Semi he was beaten by Per Jonsson (first time he had met him), that on Havelocks home track. A GP would take place around the world on different circuits where I categorically believe he wouldn't have kept up with Jonsson and Ermolenko and probably Nielsen (who did have a stinker in the Nordic Final). The final itself was also a heavily rain effected meeting. With all that being said, he was a worthy champion and his form over the year was exemplary. Edited October 8, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 36 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I would have backed Nielsen, Ermolenko and Jonsson all to have finished above Havelock over a GP campaign. As for wildcards winning a World title.... As much as ive never taken to Havvy he can claim to have been the best in the world that year and was a deserving winner with only Jonsson likely to be close. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 17 minutes ago, iainb said: I watched Havvy in all of his qualifiers in 92 and he was easily the best in the world in 92 and it came as no surprise to me he won it I think he did... But they have been handing out wild cards for around 20 years now and that's the only one that springs to mind. I think they have got it the wrong way around, it should be 3 wildcards and more quali places I think you will find the 'wildcards' have outperformed the 'qualifiers' by some distance over the years. You seem surprised that 'wildcards' haven't had more success... why would they? The best riders are generally already in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Gavan said: As much as ive never taken to Havvy he can claim to have been the best in the world that year and was a deserving winner with only Jonsson likely to be close. Except he wasn't. He was outperformed by both Jonsson and Ermolenko all season long, bar the big one of course. Jonsson for example won Swedish Final, 2nd in Nordic, won Semi Final (beating Havelock on his home track). Both Jonsson and Ermolenko were comfortably ahead domestically as well. Edited October 8, 2018 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, BWitcher said: I think you will find the 'wildcards' have outperformed the 'qualifiers' by some distance over the years. You seem surprised that 'wildcards' haven't had more success... why would they? The best riders are generally already in! I wouldn't say I'm surprised, more disappointed, no need for 5 (Inc meeting wildcard) 3 is enough to allow for injury, leaving 5 for quali 3 minutes ago, BWitcher said: He was outperformed by both Jonsson and Ermolenko all season long, bar the big one of course. Except when it mattered most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) Don't agree that Muller winning in 1983 was a huge shock. On a German track he described as "like a mini longtrack", he admitted later he'd practiced on it all he wanted, appeared to supervise track grading and watering as the meeting progressed (!) and everyone knew he'd turn up with super-quick machinery, which he did: just the one GM such was his level of confidence. Granted his main area of interest was longtrack / grasstrack / sandtrack. He wasn't a contender on 'conventionial' speedway tracks but he was a more than handy speedway rider when he really wanted to be, he averaged 8.75 over 8 matches (I think it was) for Hull in 1976. Think he also stated the German authorities more or less forced him to ride speedway else he wouldn't be permitted to ride his preferred longtrack, etc. One off winner on a track suited to him; for sure. Shock winner at the time; not really. Well done to Woffy by the way.... Edited October 8, 2018 by martinmauger forgotten info 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, martinmauger said: Don't agree that Muller winning in 1983 was a huge shock. On a German track he described as "like a mini longtrack", he admitted later he'd practiced on it all he wanted, appeared to supervise track grading and watering as the meeting progressed (!) and everyone knew he'd turn up with super-quick machinery, which he did: just the one GM such was his level of confidence. Granted his main area of interest was longtrack / grasstrack / sandtrack. He wasn't a contender on 'conventionial' speedway tracks but he was a more than handy speedway rider when he really wanted to be, he averaged 8.75 over 8 matches (I think it was) for Hull in 1976. Think he also stated the German authorities more or less forced him to ride speedway else he wouldn't be permitted to ride his preferred longtrack, etc. One off winner on a track suited to him; for sure. Shock winner at the time; not really. Well done to Woffy by the way.... People are missing the point. In fact you are making the point made even stronger. A GP system eliminates everything you have just said above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 25 minutes ago, iainb said: I wouldn't say I'm surprised, more disappointed, no need for 5 (Inc meeting wildcard) 3 is enough to allow for injury, leaving 5 for quali Except when it mattered most So, if wildcards perform better than qualifiers, why would you want more qualifiers and lower the standard of the competition? The system works just fine as it is. I already said 'except in the big one'. However, as we know, the big one was a heavily rain effected meeting that made it more of a lottery. That happens and you have to adapt and to his credit he did. Whether he'd have been able to have lived with the Jonsson, Ermolenko, Nielsen over a full GP series still remains very much in doubt. Personally I think he would have been in the mix but I think he'd have lost pts in the overseas rounds, Sweden for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iainb said: Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! Don't call me a sick man because you don't agree with my point of view. Many riders have lost there life's as well. Does that make me a sick man as well. You don't know me so please refrain from name calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted October 8, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, BWitcher said: So, if wildcards perform better than qualifiers, why would you want more qualifiers and lower the standard of the competition? The system works just fine as it is. I already said 'except in the big one'. However, as we know, the big one was a heavily rain effected meeting that made it more of a lottery. That happens and you have to adapt and to his credit he did. Whether he'd have been able to have lived with the Jonsson, Ermolenko, Nielsen over a full GP series still remains very much in doubt. Personally I think he would have been in the mix but I think he'd have lost pts in the overseas rounds, Sweden for example. We'll never know about Havvy in a GP in 92, so we'll just have to go with the fact he won the championship. As for wildcard Vs qualifiers, personally I just think there are too many wildcards and it's to open to opinion, at least if you've qualified you've done it on merit 2 minutes ago, tyler42 said: Don't call me a sick man because you don't agree with my point of view. Many riders have lost there life's as well. Does that make me a sick man as well. You don't know me so please refrain from name calling. Comments like "nice little air fence" do not help your cause Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted October 8, 2018 Report Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, iainb said: Tell that to Darcy Ward you sick man! Wow! That comment is really uncalled for. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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