Warsaw 2019

[James Carter]

8 hours ago, chunky said:

I think most of us were there at Wembley in '78; I know I was!

It's funny, but even though most of us "prefer" the old World Finals, if we are realistic about it, a GP system HAS to be the fairest way.  Winning a GP certainly has been devalued because of the current system, and riders are certainly concentrating on the end results.  Having said that, money really doesn't enter into it when you are trying to win a GP in front of your own fans!

Steve

I doubt most people prefer the old system. 

I would like to see the SGP final be scored 6-4-2-1 so a bit more reward. 

[AFCB Wildcat]

17 minutes ago, James Carter said:

I doubt most people prefer the old system. 

I would like to see the SGP final be scored 6-4-2-1 so a bit more reward. 

It was scored that way up until quite recently wasn't it? Then they changed it to normal points. I agree though, I would like to see it too.

[f-s-p]

9 hours ago, AFCB Wildcat said:

I remember my first world final at Wembley in 1978 I think? Dave Jessup was the best rider on the night and an e/f cost him the title. At least with the GP format one bit of bad luck like that doesn't cost you the meeting.

All formats have their merits and pitfalls and generally I think most people agree the current one is fairest to the overall result of the series. As I said before, I preferred the eliminator system as nobody scraped into the finals, they had to scrap to avoid a third or last place and the winner took all but I can see that it probably left riders out of pocket going home after only 2 rides. I personally wouldn't want to see the GP run over just 20 heats but I just feel that winning the final has been devalued by the winner not taking maximum points. Good for sweepstakes & betting though! Does the winner get more prize money? or is it just payment for points? I guess if the winner takes the most money there's a point to it. Anyway, it is what it is. I think I heard Tai say that once lol.

 

In a single SGP round prize money is paid by FIM for finishing position, not points. Winner gets about 13k € and a non riding reserve about 2,5k €. It’s public info from the rulebook.

[Grand Central]

I pride myself on being super critical of the FIM and BSI wherever I can.
They continue to make some really silly decisions and need to be called out whenever they do.
The Speedway of Nations continues to be some sort of Dog's Breakfast.

BUT

I cannot understand any of the ongoing criticism of SGP scoring and format.
Especially this  obsession some folk have with trying to invent bizarre extreme scenarios to aid their arguments.

It seems just about perfect now.
Better than any system before it.
And should be left alone.

Its just ONE of the few things in the whole Speedway world that isn't even slightly messed up.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Grand Central
spelling

[customhouseregular]

7 hours ago, James Carter said:

I doubt most people prefer the old system. 

I would like to see the SGP final be scored 6-4-2-1 so a bit more reward. 

I preferred the old system for drama and excitement. The atmosphere at a Wembley world final was electric. I was underwhelmed at my only visit to Cardiff in 2014.

[chunky]

4 hours ago, Grand Central said:

I cannot understand any of the ongoing criticism of SGP scoring and format.
Especially this  obsession some folk have with trying to invent bizarre extreme scenarios to aid their arguments.

It seems just about perfect now.
Better than any system before it.
And should be left alone.

I do hope that wasn't aimed at me???

It is true that I love playing with numbers, but it is in no way a criticism of the system; more a way to annoy people and laugh at them when they dispute FACT! I have constantly stated that the current system is much better than the old system - and why.

No system is perfect, and there will always be anomalies. I still think that the way to determine the winner of an individual GP has its flaws, but the main thing is that it doesn't impact the overall standings.

People that complain about the "lack of drama" in the GP's obviously didn't watch last year... 

Steve

[Grand Central]

1 minute ago, chunky said:

I do hope that wasn't aimed at me???

It is true that I love playing with numbers, but it is in no way a criticism of the system; more a way to annoy people and laugh at them when they dispute FACT! I have constantly stated that the current system is much better than the old system - and why.

No system is perfect, and there will always be anomalies. I still think that the way to determine the winner of an individual GP has its flaws, but the main thing is that it doesn't impact the overall standings.

People that complain about the "lack of drama" in the GP's obviously didn't watch last year... 

Steve

Not sure.

Except that we DO disagree.
I do think this method is just about perfect .
I dont think this method of determining a GP winner has flaws.
And I dont think the way in which it works produces anomalies.

The winner of the final and therefore GP winner is not the guy with most points.

Fine. No problems for me.
 

[customhouseregular]

I'm not sure that a rider finishing with 8 points after 20 heats can end up winning a GP is exactly fair. I am not happy with the semis/finals arrangement.

[Grand Central]

1 minute ago, customhouseregular said:

I'm not sure that a rider finishing with 8 points after 20 heats can end up winning a GP is exactly fair. I am not happy with the semis/finals arrangement.

I'm very happy with that.

It could make a great 'story' and provide brilliant TV. A real giant-killing finale.

If Lambert had pulled that off on Saturday then Pearson and Tatum would have orgasmed. And I might have got quite excited too !

It would be repeated endlessly in BTSport adverts and have had more views on YouTube than Chris Harris 2007.

Win win allround.

 

[James Carter]

1 hour ago, customhouseregular said:

I preferred the old system for drama and excitement. The atmosphere at a Wembley world final was electric. I was underwhelmed at my only visit to Cardiff in 2014.

I get that - but its one match a year. SGP your getting so much more. Also, watch some of those old matches on Youtube. The racing was pretty dreadful

14 minutes ago, customhouseregular said:

I'm not sure that a rider finishing with 8 points after 20 heats can end up winning a GP is exactly fair. I am not happy with the semis/finals arrangement.

I don't mind it adds to the drama on the night. The progressive scores keep ticking over though so Dudek leads the 2019 championship which seems fair to me

[chunky]

4 minutes ago, James Carter said:

I get that - but its one match a year. SGP your getting so much more. Also, watch some of those old matches on Youtube. The racing was pretty dreadful

But everyone says it was so much better back then!!!

Seriously though, that's the thing; it is still great to watch, but the racing generally doesn't seem to be as good as we remember. Also, seeing how the riding style has changed, some of it looks pretty amateurish now.

As far as the GP system, it is great to have a whole summer of action, and as I said in regard to last year, the interest and excitement was maintained all season. Throw in some fantastic reason, and it is difficult to see why so many still seem to yearn for the World Finals...

Steve

[iwright71]

Back from a weekend in Warsaw. Great city, still on a 4th visit plenty of new things to see and do. Thought the speedway was ok , not the best I've seen at Warsaw , not the worst, happily it was possible to pass if you were quick enough and the gates were pretty equal. Stadium  I think is one of the best in Europe, easy access , easy to get, food, drink and toilets. The atmosphere is great but its all dependant on the performance of the home riders, when the Pole's are at the back you can here a pin drop. Great programme as well, 87 pages full colour for only 4 quid. Not sure if its the same publishers who do the Cardiff programme as they had an advert in the programme. Another quirky thing that has changed in Warsaw is they now have an abundance of the public flying around on public motorised scooters. Instead of Boris bikes they have something akin to Stalin scooters. And they go pretty fast, accidents waiting to happen in my view, if one of those hit you full on you would know about it. Saw some of the qualifying on the TV Friday night. Why I'm not against new ideas its pointless if several riders are missing, what is it 6 missing in Krsco. As for the Championship it was good to see some of the outsiders in the Final and now the Favourites have to chase not the other way round. Just wish we could have more Stadium GP's but they have been tried elsewhere and we all know the finance doesn't add up, unfortunately back to speedway in a field in one horse towns is becoming more the norm.

[AFCB Wildcat]

13 hours ago, Grand Central said:

I pride myself on being super critical of the FIM and BSI wherever I can.
They continue to make some really silly decisions and need to be called out whenever they do.
The Speedway of Nations continues to be some sort of Dog's Breakfast.

BUT

I cannot understand any of the ongoing criticism of SGP scoring and format.
Especially this  obsession some folk have with trying to invent bizarre extreme scenarios to aid their arguments.

It seems just about perfect now.
Better than any system before it.
And should be left alone.

Its just ONE of the few things in the whole Speedway world that isn't even slightly messed up.

But just because in your opinion it's perfect doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion, it's a discussion forum after all.

The discussion arose by someone questioning how Leon Madsen can win a GP when he's won one race all night. Seems a fair point to me. You've got a guy at the top of the podium spraying champagne when he's finished well down the standings and only won the last race. The bizarre  scenarios were only to point out that if the winner on the night took maximum points then it would be possible to become World champion with a far inferior points tally to a rival and the other side of the coin is that currently steady Eddie could be world champion having not beaten rider B or C throughout the campaign where rider B & C have beaten Eddie every time they met. Unlikely I know but in either scenario could they be deemed the best rider in the world? Generally cream rises to the top whatever format but none are perfect.

I liked the eliminator system but accept it wasn't ideal. Others would prefer a 20 heat format and you like the current format, that's great. I don't consider my opinion as more valid than anyone elses and don't consider anyone elses more valid than mine. If we all agreed there wouldn't be much to discuss which is surely the point of a discussion forum?

[Grand Central]

24 minutes ago, AFCB Wildcat said:

But just because in your opinion it's perfect doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussion, it's a discussion forum after all.

The discussion arose by someone questioning how Leon Madsen can win a GP when he's won one race all night. Seems a fair point to me. You've got a guy at the top of the podium spraying champagne when he's finished well down the standings and only won the last race. The bizarre  scenarios were only to point out that if the winner on the night took maximum points then it would be possible to become World champion with a far inferior points tally to a rival and the other side of the coin is that currently steady Eddie could be world champion having not beaten rider B or C throughout the campaign where rider B & C have beaten Eddie every time they met. Unlikely I know but in either scenario could they be deemed the best rider in the world? Generally cream rises to the top whatever format but none are perfect.

I liked the eliminator system but accept it wasn't ideal. Others would prefer a 20 heat format and you like the current format, that's great. I don't consider my opinion as more valid than anyone elses and don't consider anyone elses more valid than mine. If we all agreed there wouldn't be much to discuss which is surely the point of a discussion forum?

Bizarre.

I stated my opInion.
I never advocated you could not express yours or be prevented from any discussion.
Just that I dont agree with it, nor see it's merits.

 

[topaz325]

54 minutes ago, iwright71 said:

Back from a weekend in Warsaw. Great city, still on a 4th visit plenty of new things to see and do. Thought the speedway was ok , not the best I've seen at Warsaw , not the worst, happily it was possible to pass if you were quick enough and the gates were pretty equal. Stadium  I think is one of the best in Europe, easy access , easy to get, food, drink and toilets. The atmosphere is great but its all dependant on the performance of the home riders, when the Pole's are at the back you can here a pin drop. Great programme as well, 87 pages full colour for only 4 quid. Not sure if its the same publishers who do the Cardiff programme as they had an advert in the programme. Another quirky thing that has changed in Warsaw is they now have an abundance of the public flying around on public motorised scooters. Instead of Boris bikes they have something akin to Stalin scooters. And they go pretty fast, accidents waiting to happen in my view, if one of those hit you full on you would know about it. Saw some of the qualifying on the TV Friday night. Why I'm not against new ideas its pointless if several riders are missing, what is it 6 missing in Krsco. As for the Championship it was good to see some of the outsiders in the Final and now the Favourites have to chase not the other way round. Just wish we could have more Stadium GP's but they have been tried elsewhere and we all know the finance doesn't add up, unfortunately back to speedway in a field in one horse towns is becoming more the norm.

Agree about the scooters,

[AFCB Wildcat]

17 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

 

I never advocated you could not express yours or be prevented from any discussion.
 

 

I didn't suggest you did. I was just pointing out why people criticise the format as you said you couldn't understand why in a dismissive type way.

It looks like BSI,  FIM are finally happy with the format now anyway as they've not tinkered with it for a while.

[James Carter]

Does anyone know why BT Sport still haven't got the Warsaw SGP on catch up? 

 

[stevehone]

Scooters are fantastic, great fun getting around the city .. I admit they’re a bit of a menace, but using them is great.

in Warsaw for another 2 days and will be using them a lot 

[bluejam]

14 hours ago, iwright71 said:

 Another quirky thing that has changed in Warsaw is they now have an abundance of the public flying around on public motorised scooters. Instead of Boris bikes they have something akin to Stalin scooters. And they go pretty fast, accidents waiting to happen in my view, if one of those hit you full on you would know about it.

Accidents waiting to happen indeed!!One of our party who decided to make his way back to the City after the GP on these scooters ended up in Solec Hospital after being knocked unconscious!!Kept in hospital for observation and also transferred to another hospital for a neurological CT scan!Medical advice was to fly home today and not yesterday as scheduled!!Other than that,it was a cracking weekend with Legia Warsaw being at home too on Sunday evening with volleys of tear gas being dispersed long after the match finished!!

[teaboy279]

19 minutes ago, bluejam said:

Accidents waiting to happen indeed!!One of our party who decided to make his way back to the City after the GP on these scooters ended up in Solec Hospital after being knocked unconscious!!Kept in hospital for observation and also transferred to another hospital for a neurological CT scan!Medical advice was to fly home today and not yesterday as scheduled!!Other than that,it was a cracking weekend with Legia Warsaw being at home too on Sunday evening with volleys of tear gas being dispersed long after the match finished!!

Was that on the city side of the bridge, next to the tower thingy. We saw the car that was sat on top of a scooter, but ad there was no blood or gore, we kinda assumed no one was hurt.

My friend at work when I said how many there was, said that there is a big movement to try and get them banned.

Home your friend is ok.