Unfair advantage - starting gates

[Trees]

On 9/11/2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

I'd like that tried to, choice of gate positions used as tactical changes. 

[steve roberts]

On 11 September 2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

I recall Ole Olsen suggesting this in an interview he gave to 'Backtrack' some years ago.

[Gemini]

On 9/11/2018 at 6:31 AM, steve roberts said:

...I recall that concrete starts were used once but soon discarded after a couple of years (?)

Seem to remember a rider flipping over on the concrete start at the old Blackbird Road track and breaking his back. I used to know his name but sadly it's no longer stored.

[racers and royals]

On 9/11/2018 at 8:11 AM, Richard Weston said:

Think you can still see them at the old California track just off M3 in Surrey

Berkshire please - us Berks don’t want to be associated with Surrey !!

[britmet]

Concrete starting grid at Stoke 1953, with Belle Vue, led by Jack Parker, as visitors
It looks to be about 4 bikes length, going well beyond the stationery bike position, so that transition isn't abrupt.
(Peter craven is 3rd from left, on back row.)

Edited January 20, 2019 by britmet

[False dawn]

40 minutes ago, britmet said:

Concrete starting grid at Stoke 1953, with Belle Vue, led by Jack Parker, as visitors
It looks to be about 4 bikes length, going well beyond the stationery bike position, so that transition isn't abrupt.
(Peter craven is 3rd from left, on back row.)

2

Not sure how this thread got revived after being dormant for many months but having reread it I still think there are ways to solve the problem. I read with interest the pros and cons of concrete starting gates but can't believe for a minute this is the way forward. Surely the torque generated by modern bikes rules out this as a possibility?

My original contention was that although the stats show a clear advantage for one gate at times, looking at several meetings at the same circuit suggests that there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong with any one gate. To me, that suggests track preparation around the start line and the upkeep of the surface during the meeting are more crucial. It never fails to amaze me that when one gate is becoming an obvious graveyard during a meeting, no attempt is made to level up the surface. I'm no expert and I'm sure I couldn't look at the surface and say what needs to be done. But then I'm not the track curator or the starting marshal who stands there week in week out. 

Grade the starts and those that want it, could have an argument to ban "gardening".

[Stoke Potter]

On 9/11/2018 at 3:23 PM, Vince said:

 

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

 

I've long thought this is something that should happen but the distance that gate 4 is in front of gate 1 should be unique to each track.

I think 2 feet forward at most tracks would be way too much.

All starts should be made to be as even as possible, there are enough boring races in Speedway without the starts giving advantages to certain gate positions.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

It is of course actually standard practice at some tracks to make certain gates advantageous on an alternating basis as required throughout a meeting.....

[False dawn]

Just now, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

It is of course actually standard practice at some tracks to make certain gates advantageous on an alternating basis as required throughout a meeting.....

And giving the losing the side choice of gates, means the track staff don't know which gates to favour in those circumstances doesn't it?

[Bald Bloke]

4 hours ago, britmet said:

Concrete starting grid at Stoke 1953, with Belle Vue, led by Jack Parker, as visitors
It looks to be about 4 bikes length, going well beyond the stationery bike position, so that transition isn't abrupt.
(Peter craven is 3rd from left, on back row.)

With the speed of todays machines, the bikes rarely go in a straight over the start/finish line. At most tracks the bikes are still slightly sideways and spinning on the home straight. If a spinning and slightly turning bike hits the concrete at 70mph I think disaster would follow.

[Stoke Potter]

2 hours ago, Richard Weston said:

Look how many people are watching...

Is the grandstand still there, unchanged?

That was Stoke Sun Street and it is long gone.

[Tsunami]

21 hours ago, Stoke Potter said:

That was Stoke Sun Street and it is long gone.

I remember Sun Street from the early 60's. Was the track sunk down below the level of the grass/soil, cos I can remember I couldn't see the lower half to the riders on the opposite side. Might just have been they hadn't cut the grass of course. Adams, Harris and Peter Kelly I think were riding for Stoke.

[g13webb]

To me, one of the main reason the sport has lost the wide appeal it once enjoyed,  is the stereo type rules implemented to eliminates the unexpected from happening.  Does it matter if a lesser rider anticipates the start,  it makes for better racing,   Years ago we had riders pushing the tapes,  we had riders trying to out think the ref, we had the ref doing his best to catch the riders moving back,  it all added to the occasion.     All we get now is stereo type races where riders are not allowed to move or show any initiatives.   Only allowing for the best riders to win.....       Once,  every race had an angle to it , each could offer a surprise when an unexpected rider could win...    

Why do we need strict rules  on gate positions, why not let the team choice who rides where,   Where have all the character gone???   Once upon a time every team had a showman, a rider or manager who the fans cold relate with.   Now we have nothing,  just robotic riders going round and round, not even bothered if they win or not...  They mustn't do this , they mustn't do that,   its little wonder the sport is dying...   

[britmet]

3 hours ago, Tsunami said:

I remember Sun Street from the early 60's. Was the track sunk down below the level of the grass/soil, cos I can remember I couldn't see the lower half to the riders on the opposite side. Might just have been they hadn't cut the grass of course. Adams, Harris and Peter Kelly I think were riding for Stoke.

Thats right, - you just saw the heads bobbing up and down on the top bend, over the rough surface.

Note that Parker and his team mate have their helmet and colours on, ready for Ht.1. 
That was the way back then, no returning to the pits,  and another 15 mins. delay before the racing started !

Edited January 22, 2019 by britmet

[Stoke Potter]

22 hours ago, Tsunami said:

I remember Sun Street from the early 60's. Was the track sunk down below the level of the grass/soil, cos I can remember I couldn't see the lower half to the riders on the opposite side. Might just have been they hadn't cut the grass of course. Adams, Harris and Peter Kelly I think were riding for Stoke.

Sorry I'm not sure as I never actually went to Sun Street, it was before my time!

The site became a Garage/Car Sales business and I think still does car repairs to this day.

Not sure if you can get any clues from what you remember here: 
 https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/details.aspx?ResourceID=35846&ExhibitionID=35849&SearchType=2&ThemeID=768

Not sure if the Greyhound track is higher than the Speedway Circuit??

[Tsunami]

18 hours ago, britmet said:

Thats right, - you just saw the heads bobbing up and down on the top bend, over the rough surface.

Note that Parker and his team mate have their helmet and colours on, ready for Ht.1. 
That was the way back then, no returning to the pits,  and another 15 mins. delay before the racing started !

Certainly the photos that Stoke Potter has kindly put a link shows the centre green quite elevated, with the middle part higher than the white line level. Obviously  I must have seen it in 1963 on me and my mate's 2 weeks tour of tracks, sleeping in my car with a track every night( Rye House on Sunday). Sadly I saw New Cross in that holiday in 1963, and it also closed down after that year. Was going to go to Norwich, The Firs, that year but left it for a later year and missed out due to its closure. Certainly lost a lot of tracks in the boom years of the 60's but I saw West Ham before that closed. . 

[adonis]

On 1/21/2019 at 2:38 PM, Richard Weston said:

Look how many people are watching...

Is the grandstand still there, unchanged?

I dont think thats loomer road . I'm guessing sun street

[Shale Searcher]

The whole sport has been sanitised.