Unfair advantage - starting gates

[False dawn]

Simply question: Is it possible to make all 4 starting gates roughly equivalent?

Those of you who know me well know that I like to gather and analyse meeting statistics. Actually, I'm a bit of a nerd, but you've been too polite to say so thus far.

But stats are just data. Their interpretation is information and information that can be useful.

Take the last 4 years GPs at Krsko for example. Many of you will have noticed that gate 4 on Saturday night was a stinker. It produced 1 race winner (Magic in heat 19) and, in my opinion, more significantly, yielded the fewest points. Now you could propose quite credible reasons for this based on the run to the first corner and the shape of the track. And if we look at last year's stats you will find some support for this conclusion (0 wins and an even lower number of points). But go back to 2016 and the theory breaks down. Gate 4 was the 2nd best gate.

Now all these numbers are well and good. I think the sample is significant enough to draw some conclusions. Certainly riders are generally pretty sure which gate to chose in the semis and the final based on the first 20 heats. My question is more related to track preparation. Is the fact that gate 4 is on the racing line significant? Is there more (or less) loose material out there? Does the rain drain down to the inside? I don't know, but surely the track curator has some ideas. Would you want to prepare a track where riders had very little chance of scoring points from one or more gates? Surely there are ways to even out the surface? Men with rakes around the start, working between every race (not an original idea btw)? A more scientific measure of the surface such as Kelvin's dirtometer (!!!). Whatever method is used, please remove some of these disparities. All too often the last third of a meeting is spoiled, ruined dare I say, due to the unfair advantage offered by a given gate or two.

[waytogo28]

Thank the Lord for "nerds" - Truly. Collectors of information on the sport we still are foolishly addicted to, are always of interest. As the start is absolutely vital ( at least in 80% of races ) more should be done to make them much more alike and fairer. Something as simple as suggested - men with rakes should be possible but concrete starting areas would also help ( because there are good gardeners and poor gardeners ). Little is ever done to improve the spectacle of racing including the possibility of passing only faster bikes ( on less adequate tracks in many stadia ). 

[steve roberts]

I've often raised this issue with 'fixed' gates which allows an advantage to which ever team when the pre-determined gates don't alternate offering an advantage to those who start the meeting on the inside moving towards the outside gates as the meeting progresses and vice versa as the dirt (remember that?) moved out.

[Daniel Smith]

Maybe if any team is 6 or more behind the team manager can pick the gates he prefers the rider's to be on. No Tac Subs at all.

[False dawn]

11 hours ago, waytogo28 said:

.... but concrete starting areas would also help

I have wondered if this was a possible solution. Although it could cause damage to the tyres and lead to riders wanting a new rear tyre per race. 

[steve roberts]

6 hours ago, False dawn said:

I have wondered if this was a possible solution. Although it could cause damage to the tyres and lead to riders wanting a new rear tyre per race. 

...I recall that concrete starts were used once but soon discarded after a couple of years (?)

[cityrebel]

17 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

Maybe if any team is 6 or more behind the team manager can pick the gates he prefers the rider's to be on. No Tac Subs at all.

That used to be in the rules alongside the tac subs. I don't know how long ago it was done away with.

[steve roberts]

26 minutes ago, cityrebel said:

That used to be in the rules alongside the tac subs. I don't know how long ago it was done away with.

I have a feeling that fixed gates came in during 1987/1988 (?) and for the first season I recall that you were able to choose gates also but that was done away soon after.

[SPEEDY69]

I can see the logic in having a smooth surface for the initial starting position.  I don't think that with shale and the slope of tracks that you'll ever be able to reproduce that currently and the original post rightly gives some reasons.  The biggest influence in this I think is the moisture to surface tension ratio (soft to hard).  Generally the harder the start line the less grip was my experience.

If gates were all made even then wouldn't the racing be even more predictable though because some riders are better than others at starting - at least the variance gives those not so good a chance to get out in front?

[Daniel Smith]

45 minutes ago, cityrebel said:

That used to be in the rules alongside the tac subs. I don't know how long ago it was done away with.

Unaware of that, must have been before I started going. They did have something similar a few of seasons ago when you could choose any gate, having both rider's on 1 & 2 etc. That was soon gotten rid of when teammates were taking each other out on the first turn.

[cityrebel]

48 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Unaware of that, must have been before I started going. They did have something similar a few of seasons ago when you could choose any gate, having both rider's on 1 & 2 etc. That was soon gotten rid of when teammates were taking each other out on the first turn.

I remember it being in force in the 1970's and 80's. I've always thought it was a good idea.

[SPEEDY69]

1 hour ago, Daniel Smith said:

Unaware of that, must have been before I started going. They did have something similar a few of seasons ago when you could choose any gate, having both rider's on 1 & 2 etc. That was soon gotten rid of when teammates were taking each other out on the first turn.

Really, I don't remember that and have been going since 1978 - they've always had to alternate gates for each side 1/3 or 2/4?

[steve roberts]

20 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said:

Really, I don't remember that and have been going since 1978 - they've always had to alternate gates for each side 1/3 or 2/4?

...always thought alternate gates were fairer. When the fixed gates came in depending on which team they either had three out of four inside gates or outside gates in succession depending on who won the toss and of course with the dirt moving out as the meeting progressed gave an unfair advantage in my opinion.

[Daniel Smith]

1 hour ago, SPEEDY69 said:

Really, I don't remember that and have been going since 1978 - they've always had to alternate gates for each side 1/3 or 2/4?

Found the info. 2009 Premier League KOC - King's Lynn v Berwick. Topinka & Eklof are KL rider's, Franc & Clews Berwick rider's. Knew I didn't make it up.

[Daniel Smith]

2 hours ago, SPEEDY69 said:

Really, I don't remember that and have been going since 1978 - they've always had to alternate gates for each side 1/3 or 2/4?

 

3 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Found the info. 2009 Premier League KOC - King's Lynn v Berwick. Topinka & Eklof are KL rider's, Franc & Clews Berwick rider's. Knew I didn't make it up.

And to show it wasn't a typo on the updates

 

[Vince]

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

[Daniel Smith]

1 hour ago, Vince said:

No way you can have a concrete starting pad, the dirt will disappear from either side leaving a big ridge to get over, especially on smaller tracks riders are often sideways at that point as well.

I've long said I think you should get choice of gates (1&3 or 2&4) when x points behind rather than any sort of tactical scheme.

Maybe the start line should be slightly slanted with gate 4 a foot or two further forward than gate one.

As for the statistics on gate success I think you need to know who goes onto the back straight in the lead rather than race winners.

Machines are too powerful for concrete starts also. Bikes more likely to flip from the starts when they go from concrete to dirt.

Maybe go back to having pushers at the starts. Would cut costs on burnt out clutches 

[steve roberts]

23 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Machines are too powerful for concrete starts also. Bikes more likely to flip from the starts when they go from concrete to dirt.

Maybe go back to having pushers at the starts. Would cut costs on burnt out clutches 

...Interesting interview with Tony Lomas in the latest 'Backtrack' magazine where he talks about his prowess from the gate. Apparently during his day job testing motorbikes he would practice throttle and clutch control on the road from a standing start and put those skills into practice when on his speedway bike. It helped with traction and not creating too much rear wheel spin. 

[Daniel Smith]

2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...Interesting interview with Tony Lomas in the latest 'Backtrack' magazine where he talks about his prowess from the gate. Apparently during his day job testing motorbikes he would practice throttle and clutch control on the road from a standing start and put those skills into practice when on his speedway bike. It helped with traction and not creating too much rear wheel spin. 

Back in the day to today are very different out the starts. If today's engines ain't high revving they just die or there's to much grip and flip.

As the engine's are so high revving you can't go from concrete to dirt. So dangerous.

The only way to make a concrete start safer the the concrete would have to run right up to the first bend, then of course, rider run added risk if any crashes happen between the tapes and first bend. 

Concrete, tarmac etc is just not viable today.

Best thing to do is not allow gardening at all, have a count down clock and only allow the starting grid to be accessible with 10secs remaining.

[ColinMills]

turning the clock back again, I happen to think the choice of gates was better in the 70s. don't like fixed gates in league racing...Olsen always grabbed gate one, Morton usually off 4..this gave slightly more tactics (which lack today), to managers, riders