Simmo how is he remembered?

[Sidney the robin]

11 hours ago, moxey63 said:

Malcolm Simmons was a smooth and classy rider. Winner of the British Final in 1976 during a period qualifying for the meeting itself was hard enough, there was always a whiff of controversy about him. I suppose the race fixing allegations in 1984 topped the lot, then there was his sacking by Poole in 1980 when he apparently threw a race, his honesty in saying he purposely dropped points one season so his average allowed him to race in the second tier the next year. An interesting rider.

If anything though, the number of vehicle breakdowns on the way to meetings he subsequently missed tell how lax he was on his breakdown cover.

 

I noticed he never rode that much at Exeter over the years.

[iris123]

10 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Personally I don't get het up over points bought, dropped or sold as it's been going on for years...probably since the start of the sport. 

Mitch Shirra, when interviewed in 'Backtrack' some years ago, told how the Coventry riders were ordered to drop points so as the overall team average would prove advantageous when formulating the team for the following season.

My uncle saw two very famous riders buying off a rider during a World Championship meeting in Britain (an incident that John Berry also quoted in his book "Confessions" to which I collaborated in the way of a response to him personally via email)

I heard whispers and/or suspicions whereby guest riders were paid off by the opposing team and one very well known rider had fingers pointed during one meeting at Cowley but which was never proven.

The speedway scribe John Chaplin was once quoted in one of his books that if you don't wish to have your illusions spoilt then stay very firmly on your side of the fence.

Personally I don’t accept things just because they have been going on for years!!!I know some people think being racist is ok because it has been going on for years.Anti -Semitin has been going on for years,chucking oil down the drains has been going on for years,dumping rubbish in country lanes or throwing stuff in the sea has been going on for years and sportspeople taking illegal drugs has been going on for years

I understand and fully support people who are against such things

[steve roberts]

35 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Personally I don’t accept things just because they have been going on for years!!!I know some people think being racist is ok because it has been going on for years.Anti -Semitin has been going on for years,chucking oil down the drains has been going on for years,dumping rubbish in country lanes or throwing stuff in the sea has been going on for years and sportspeople taking illegal drugs has been going on for years

I understand and fully support people who are against such things

...obviously the points that you make are valid and very relevant today and thankfully public opinion has been stung into accepting some of the wrongs of the past and present.

My point was that in speedway terms the sport has always been prevalent to both open and closed abuse and probably always will be as with other sports which have been laid open to scrutiny in recent years. Doesn't make it right and is obviously open to discussion and conjecture but personally I'm not going to get hung up on what many of us knew or had suspicions of what was going on behind the scenes in the past or indeed the present (?) within the sport. Perhaps we were more naive in those days and without the benefit of close scrutiny and media attention we just accepted such things rightly or wrongly.

Of course one is able to be more observant and objective when the true facts are made known and therefore make a more informed judgement and analysis of past and/or present set of circumstances whatever the scenario whether it be in sport or the world in general.

Edited September 11, 2018 by steve roberts

[moxey63]

I don't blame Simmo for dropping the points so he could race in the NL the following season, he must have lost money, I do blame the fact that rules drawn up by the sport's governors meant he had to do so. Speedway fans will put up with it, to a point. The problem comes when you try to attract new support and there are still aspects of points dropping to allow a team to reshuffle during the same year.

Even if Malcom Simmons would have gone through the 1985 British League season with a 12-point average, he couldn't have bettered that figure when he drooped down. So why encourage cheating. Surely it would have been better to assess him on a 12-point (the highest you can have) figure instead of making the sport look silly and encouraging him to throw races.

Edited September 11, 2018 by moxey63

[Grachan]

8 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I don't blame Simmo for dropping the point so he could race in the NL the following season, I do blame the fact that rules drawn up by the sport's governors meant he had to do so. Speedway fans will put up with it, to a point. The problem comes when you try to attract new support and there are still aspects of points dropping to allow a team to reshuffle during the same year.

There was nothing wrong with that rule. It meant we had a proper first and second division. Sure, people like Simmons may have dropped points to drop down, but at least it kept the leagues at a standard they are supposed to be.

[Sidney the robin]

13 minutes ago, Grachan said:

There was nothing wrong with that rule. It meant we had a proper first and second division. Sure, people like Simmons may have dropped points to drop down, but at least it kept the leagues at a standard they are supposed to be.

The rule odviously was not bullet proof and there was a flaw in it. The NL / old Second division  has always  held a place for the likes of Mckinlay, Broadbanks ,(ect) over the years riders who were on the way down. but still had something to offer could still enjoy there speedway and could still entertain the fans.

[Grachan]

26 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The rule odviously was not bullet proof and there was a flaw in it. The NL / old Second division  has always  held a place for the likes of Mckinlay, Broadbanks ,(ect) over the years riders who were on the way down. but still had something to offer could still enjoy there speedway and could still entertain the fans.

I remember Dave Jessup and Gordon Kennett also dropping down, amongst others.

It started to get a bit silly when Bo Petersen and Brian Karger both signed for Arena-Essex.

[Sidney the robin]

Just now, Grachan said:

I remember Dave Jessup and Gordon Kennett also dropping down, amongst others.

It started to get a bit silly when Bo Petersen and Brian Karger both signed for Arena-Essex.

Did the Rasmussen /Schroek affair also have a massive affect Grachan ? what do you think.

[Grachan]

4 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Did the Rasmussen /Schroek affair also have a massive affect Grachan ? what do you think.

Definitely. That initially opened the floodgates, although more in terms of overseas riders rather than the actual standard.

Didn't Swindon once sign Gordon Kennett as their number 8 after he dropped down?

Edited September 11, 2018 by Grachan

[steve roberts]

46 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

The rule odviously was not bullet proof and there was a flaw in it. The NL / old Second division  has always  held a place for the likes of Mckinlay, Broadbanks ,(ect) over the years riders who were on the way down. but still had something to offer could still enjoy there speedway and could still entertain the fans.

John Dews couldn't adapt to White City when 'The Rebels' moved to Wood Lane and would have been a very able number one for 'The Cheetahs' in 1976 but his average was deemed too high and he subsequently retired.

[moxey63]

1 hour ago, Grachan said:

There was nothing wrong with that rule. It meant we had a proper first and second division. Sure, people like Simmons may have dropped points to drop down, but at least it kept the leagues at a standard they are supposed to be.

How can they (the league) have been a standard they're supposed to have been when at least one rider is purposely dropping points to get into the other league?

Edited September 11, 2018 by moxey63

[Grachan]

Just now, moxey63 said:

How can they be a standard they're supposed to be when at least one rider is purposely dropping points to get into the other league?

Because he was cheating. That's his fault, not the league's.

[moxey63]

12 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

John Dews couldn't adapt to White City when 'The Rebels' moved to Wood Lane and would have been a very able number one for 'The Cheetahs' in 1976 but his average was deemed too high and he subsequently retired.

Gordon Kennett was forced to quit in the mid-90s because he had performed too well in matches for Wolves at reserve, moved into heatleader spot after the first averages, struggled, was dropped by Wolves, wanted to go to Oxford in the second division, but his average was too high. Another stalwart forced to quit.

[moxey63]

4 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Because he was cheating. That's his fault, not the league's.

But the rule allowed him, encouraged him to do so, did it not. Like the mysterious engine failures the Poole boys suffered in the early qualifying matches of the league season about five years ago, there was even an investigation to see if they had (don't know how they'd have proved that one). so they could jettison a few under-performing riders and welcome aboard a few stronger one. If a rule is there to encourage cheating, it means some cheats may be encouraged.

Edited September 11, 2018 by moxey63

[Grachan]

Just now, moxey63 said:

But the rules allowed him, encouraged him to do so, did it not. Like the mysterious engine failures the Poole boys suffered in the early qualifying matches of the league season about five years ago, there was even an investigation to see if they had (don't know how they'd have proved that one). If a rule is there to encourage cheating, it means some cheats may be encouraged.

The rules did not allow him to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be cheating. You could say it encouraged cheating, but there was a rule saying riders had to make a bonafide attempt to race - although being excluded for that would, ironically, have counted as a race and lowered his average.

I remember Rickard Hellsen making the most obvious bad final turn too, enabling to be passed after the rider in front had an engine failure. He'd already signed for Long Eaton for the following year and came perilously close to averaging over 6.00 in that moment.

[moxey63]

7 minutes ago, Grachan said:

The rules did not allow him to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be cheating. You could say it encouraged cheating, but there was a rule saying riders had to make a bonafide attempt to race - although being excluded for that would, ironically, have counted as a race and lowered his average.

I remember Rickard Hellsen making the most obvious bad final turn too, enabling to be passed after the rider in front had an engine failure. He'd already signed for Long Eaton for the following year and came perilously close to averaging over 6.00 in that moment.

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

Edited September 11, 2018 by moxey63

[Grachan]

1 minute ago, moxey63 said:

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

I think that's a valid point, and, as you say, it is encouraged by the rules even if it is, technically, cheating.

The average manipulation we get now is because the points limit is always too low so it is the best way to get a stronger team later in the year.

[steve roberts]

23 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Gordon Kennett was forced to quit in the mid-90s because he had performed too well in matches for Wolves at reserve, moved into heatleader spot after the first averages, struggled, was dropped by Wolves, wanted to go to Oxford in the second division, but his average was too high. Another stalwart forced to quit.

...Yes I recall Oxford wanting to sign Gordon whose converted average was deemed just too high. He would have made a good a signing and would have pleased many 'old time' Oxford fans!

[steve roberts]

12 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I understand that. But just the inkling that a rider may be dropping points on purpose takes away from a brilliant race in the long run. The number of times in my latter years of watching did I ponder if a good pass was a good pass or just that the leader was going to get some form of advantage from it or had been told by his team to do so.

I grew too cynical. I watched too many dodgy things happen in the latter years. And don't get me going about how Poole fans were calling for Matt Ford to quit just months back, crowds were dipping, the team were getting weak, weak enough to bring aboard riders to strengthen, but just in time to roar ahead in the title chase. Seems like a fairy tale, a wrestling match, but not the spot I believe in too much nowadays.   

...slightly different scenario but I remember Steve Lomas dropping points (feigned engine failure?) when on a potential heat advantage thus moving Hackney into a six point lead but his subsequent action (Len Silver inspired 'allegedly') denied the opposing team to utilise a Tac Sub in the following race.

[moxey63]

19 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I think that's a valid point, and, as you say, it is encouraged by the rules even if it is, technically, cheating.

The average manipulation we get now is because the points limit is always too low so it is the best way to get a stronger team later in the year.

In the olden days, like when Simmo dropped points to enable a switch to the NL, it really didn't concern me one bit. The race-fixing allegation, also. I loved the sport back then and brushed away its impurities. But for some reason, things I readily accepted for years - like riders drifting back to drop a place to allow their team the use of the old tact-sub, I was brought up with that, were encouraged in other realms of the sport. I just think any rule that allows a rider to contemplate dropping the gas should be reviewed and scratched. We all recall the Crump v Pedersen slowest race-to-the- line in speedway history about 15 years ago, when one country wanted to use the Joker and the other side didn't want them to, so the leader dropped off the gas on the third turn and the second placed rider did likewise when he saw what the first placed rider had done. It was silly. The sport should be better than that.