The need for reserves?

[Coventry_Bee]

I have been thinking about the amount of meetings won by reserves huge scores. Take today when the Poole reserve wins heat 15 ?

There could be a valid and obvious answer to this but what is the actual need for a reserve pairing in modern speedway? Apart from average/team fiddling that we go through year in and year out why not have 6 rider teams and no reserve riders as such. The amount of results where the in form reserve has had 7 rides and scored a silly amount of points and is near enough the teams top scorer. How can this be good for the sport? Along with a cap on team changes through the year to say 3 maximum. 

 

like I say, might be valid reasons out there be good to understand more?

[Chadster]

In the early years of the 13 heat format teams had only one reserve, programmed to have two rides. The change was made to two reserves in 1969. This might have been linked to the insistence on excluding tape breakers and the need for more reserves to cover the extra rides. Now that starting offences can be penalised by putting the offender off 15 yards it might be worth looking again at the need for two reserves.

Giving the reserve two protected rides, as used to be the case, might be a way to introduce, or re-introduce, a fast-track system.

[Gemini]

I don't know but we at Leicester were grateful for our reserve tonight who had 7 rides and was top scorer with 15 points.  Saved us from a worse thrashing than losing by 10 points. Thank you Nicolaj Busk Jakobsen who again piled up the points guesting for the Lions. 

[IronScorpion]

Another example of reserves winning meetings is now at Workington, a former no1 is now a reserve & beating riders that he couldn't do before. It is also about team building & Newcastle & Berwick are proving that you don't need no1's but strength in depth to win meetings as their reserves, between them, often score 15+.

[Thornaby48]

Surely the reserve berths are also there to allow the better juniors an easy way into the team rather than chucking them in at 1-5 .

[BangerBoy]

2 hours ago, Thornaby48 said:

Surely the reserve berths are also there to allow the better juniors an easy way into the team rather than chucking them in at 1-5 .

Am I missing something here but is reserve riders the 2 lowest average in the team overall so somebody has to replace riders that get excluded or injured during a meeting?

If a "reserve" has a couple of good meetings they won't there for long anyway.

If it works for a while for the team then hey ho 

 

 

[Tsunami]

17 minutes ago, BangerBoy said:

Am I missing something here but is reserve riders the 2 lowest average in the team overall so somebody has to replace riders that get excluded or injured during a meeting?

If a "reserve" has a couple of good meetings they won't there for long anyway.

If it works for a while for the team then hey ho 

 

 

The thing you are missing might be that if the reserve berths are used correctly, in a Fast track system the reserves could be protected and stay at reserve regardless.

[SteveLyric2]

That'll be a fast track system in the |Championship would it?!

[Tsunami]

1 hour ago, Skidder1 said:

That'll be a fast track system in the |Championship would it?!

It should be. 

[Blackadder]

3 hours ago, BangerBoy said:

Am I missing something here but is reserve riders the 2 lowest average in the team overall so somebody has to replace riders that get excluded or injured during a meeting?

If a "reserve" has a couple of good meetings they won't there for long anyway.

If it works for a while for the team then hey ho.

 

Quote

The problem is that they don't issue new averages quickly enough, so potent reserves such as Tai Woffinden at Rye House and probably Drew Kemp next year, give their team a huge advantage.

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Blackadder

[Daniel Smith]

The dont think need for reserves is necessary any more. I'd still keep it 7 man teams, make the top 2 rider's at 1 & 5, and the 2 lowest at 6 & 7.

With current rules, we now have R/R and I/R/R. The only change I'd make to the rules is that I/R/R is allowed if a team is using R/R already. Each rider can only take 1 ride. Also, with R/R and I/R/R it should be 2 rider's with a higher or the same average and all rider's with a lower average. This then would (If the No7 was injured) only leave 1 heat with 3 rider's only. But if a team uses I/R/R that injured rider is sidelined for 8 days minimum. 

This way, the need for reserves to take 7 rides is unnecessary to the sport, and rightly so. 

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

The regs this year do allow IRR when RR is already in operation

[oldtimer]

I have never understood why reserves are allowed 7 rides, it's a farce when a rider can be in nearly half the races. If you have two reserves with a max of 6 rides each, that would give you 2 rides each outside of their programme rides, if you had a rider injured in the first heat you have only got that riders 3 other rides to cover and you would still have a spare ride in the rare event of a reserve having a tactical ride.  

[Thornaby48]

34 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

I have never understood why reserves are allowed 7 rides, it's a farce when a rider can be in nearly half the races. If you have two reserves with a max of 6 rides each, that would give you 2 rides each outside of their programme rides, if you had a rider injured in the first heat you have only got that riders 3 other rides to cover and you would still have a spare ride in the rare event of a reserve having a tactical ride.  

Unless I am mistaken all riders can have 7 rides. 4 programmed rides,1 tac.sub.,1 r/r, and1 nominated rider. I do agree that this is too many rides for anyone.

[RS50]

1 hour ago, oldtimer said:

I have never understood why reserves are allowed 7 rides, it's a farce when a rider can be in nearly half the races. If you have two reserves with a max of 6 rides each, that would give you 2 rides each outside of their programme rides, if you had a rider injured in the first heat you have only got that riders 3 other rides to cover and you would still have a spare ride in the rare event of a reserve having a tactical ride.  

Possibility because a reserve may get injured in race 2 and the other reserve will need to cover his remaining three races.

[GWC]

As someone alluded to it can be advantageous to have a sensation in reserve longer to benefit points scoring.

That really only makes a big difference when the team is already quite strong. When he goes into the team someone just as strong comes down.

However with so many riders now at a level of similar ability it is giving some teams too much advantage.

So yes it is time to change the reserve riders back to their original reason for existing - breaking tapes or injury.

[IronScorpion]

quote

So yes it is time to change the reserve riders back to their original reason for existing - breaking tapes or injury.

 

But that could lead to a poor scoring rider touching or breaking tapes tactically to bring in a good scoring reserve. This, also, leads to longer meetings. 

Keep still at the tapes until they rise. Touching or breaking the tapes leads to a disqualification & no replacement. Rider suffers(lack of pay) & team suffers(1 team member in race). No advantage gained through unsporting tactics.

[Coventry_Bee]

I just think when a reserve wins heat 15 you have to look and think it's not right.  Where did it change from when I started going where reserves scored 4 or 5 and that was expected, home reserves are nearing double figures and away reserves are pushing 5 between them and the final scores are overwhelmingly influenced by this. In my view the top 5 are the points scorers and the reserves are the lower level riders who should be up and coming and progressing, but at the moment your heat leader can score 3 points and yet the reserve bangs in double figures and meeting won !! 

 

[RS50]

10 minutes ago, IronScorpion said:

quote

So yes it is time to change the reserve riders back to their original reason for existing - breaking tapes or injury.

 

But that could lead to a poor scoring rider touching or breaking tapes tactically to bring in a good scoring reserve. This, also, leads to longer meetings. 

Keep still at the tapes until they rise. Touching or breaking the tapes leads to a disqualification & no replacement. Rider suffers(lack of pay) & team suffers(1 team member in race). No advantage gained through unsporting tactics.

You mention tape offences. Very often a team manager has 3 choices. Put the offender off 15 metres handicap or assuming it's not a reserve committing the offence use number 6 or 7 as replacement. How about as an idea to make starting offences potentially less beneficial let the opposition team manager make the decision.

[oldtimer]

You could have a max 6 rides for reserves but a rule that a reserve can take more rides if the other reserve is injured or if more than one rider is injured.