Lindgren 2019

[waiheke1]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

But not all countries are available to enter SEC, so something would have to change

Agree somethings would have to change. But the idea of a series to qualify means you are more likely to have stronger riders taking the qualifying spots (this season has not been an issue, not much quality difference between Nki kolodziej Lindback vs Madsen Hampel Lambert.)

[Grand Central]

2 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

TRUE but they have moved on from there and feel that the qualifiers could become superfluous if riders were just chosen at random. 

No doubt they would.

But that was as true 'then' as it is 'now'.

If there was a guy outside the SGP who was good enough to mix it with the SGP top 8, had star quality,  real pulling power and just happened to be the right nationality to add to the series .. Then considerations about whether or not be did the qualifiers would miraculously turn to dust and he would be offered a place.

And rightly.

Just like they did with Emil.

But that is not Madsen ... Or any one else. At the moment. 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Grand Central

[James Carter]

I think the jig is up for Holder, Pawlicki and Cook. So if you consider those 3 are replaced by the SGP challenge riders

Doyle I think is protected as 2017 champion. So for me the debate would be is there any rider out there that would improve on Zagar, Pedersen, & Vaculik assuming that positions stay the same., but the same thing could be said if Laguta, Hancock, Emil find themselves outside the top 8. 

So looking at it would you prefer Madsen or Lambert over any of the riders named above? I think dumping Pedersen would be a bad idea as he's total box office. So for me it just leaves just Vaculik (who's on fire) and Zagar who is basically doing what he did in 2017!

I think a good season in the Extraliga for Lambert in 2019 would set him up for 2020

[norbold]

It is a perennial problem. It's like a pyramid really. At the very top are just a few outstanding riders but as you get lower down the order the numbers widen out. By the time you get past the top five or six, the next layer widens out more and more, so by the time you get to around numbers nine to twelve, there is a much wider pool who could be considered.

Assuming no. 9 gets a wild card, as has invariably been the case (I believe it's only not happened once, though I'm open to correction on that), the three others chosen are not going to be significantly better than any other three from that ever widening pool of riders. As we have seen above, a case can be made for at least five or six riders, maybe more, and there is no real definitive answer to this. 

The only way it could be solved is for all the seven riders after the automatic eight to go through some sort of qualifying system, whether the current system or the bottom seven versus a qualified nine. Otherwise this dilemma will happen every year. Even this has its problems, because it doesn't account for injuries, but then neither did the old one-off type of World Final. 

But then, of course, if it was all done through qualifiers, we wouldn't have endless fun speculating who might be chosen.

[Fromafar]

Hancock will cause a headache should he not finish in the top 8. No problem if he wasn't with Monster BUT!!!!!!!

[waiheke1]

36 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Hancock will cause a headache should he not finish in the top 8. No problem if he wasn't with Monster BUT!!!!!!!

Why would he cause a headache? If he finishes 9th or 10th he'll get a wild card. Because he deserves it by being better, imo, than alternative wildcard candidates. 

[Fromafar]

I don't get this sh#t about 9th & 10 th getting wildcard,what's the point of saying Top8.Just pick who they want every year then Top 8 or not.Only in speedway do they cause their own problems.

e.g.

there is no way Holder should have been selected this year on previous years form.

[Grand Central]

6 hours ago, Fromafar said:

there is no way Holder should have been selected this year on previous years form.

Too right.

It seems to have been forgotten just what a daft pick he was last year and just how many people here were arguing against it on good grounds.

Only to hear of his 'surprise' pick by the totally independent FIM.

No outside considerations were made, of course, it was done entirely on merit. 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Grand Central

[Mark]

8th 9th, 10th or 11th is only a couple of points different normally.    No need to change riders for the sake of it.    If Zagar, Pedersen, Vaculik are in those positions (9 to 11) they have to ride again in 2019 as they are proven to be very capable of winning a GP.     There will be riders in the top 8 who haven't got close to winning a GP.

[Star Lady]

12 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

Too right.

It seems to have been forgotten just what a daft pick he was last year and just how many people here were arguing against it on good grounds.

Only to hear of his 'surprise' pick by the totally independent FIM.

No outside considerations were made, if course, it was done entirely on merit. 

 

A monster error in fact

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, Mark said:

8th 9th, 10th or 11th is only a couple of points different normally.    No need to change riders for the sake of it.    If Zagar, Pedersen, Vaculik are in those positions (9 to 11) they have to ride again in 2019 as they are proven to be very capable of winning a GP.     There will be riders in the top 8 who haven't got close to winning a GP.

Just make it Top 12 then! Just causing their own problems.With the format there is always a chance that a Top  8 rider might not win aGP.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Fromafar

[chunky]

3 hours ago, Fromafar said:

I don't get this sh#t about 9th & 10 th getting wildcard,what's the point of saying Top8.Just pick who they want every year then Top 8 or not.Only in speedway do they cause their own problems.

e.g.

there is no way Holder should have been selected this year on previous years form.

Exactly what I was getting at a few posts back!  It is supposedly the Top 8 who qualify, but then it's like we have automatic wild cards for those who finish 9th and 10th!  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with with the actual numbers of qualifiers, but it defeats the concept if they simply pick 9th and 10th too...

Steve

[topaz325]

It may be to avoid hard luck stories to previous champions who may have been injured during the series, hey but Speedway is full of hard luck stories.

I would rather it was top eight  or ten then qualifiers, if you are good enough in a challenge meeting then why not give riders a chance to prove themselves .

[chunky]

How about something like this?

The Top 8 qualify for the following year.

Positions 13-16 are totally out of the following year, EXCEPT if they missed out through injury (see below).

Positions 9-12 meet the Top 10 from the GP Challenge (or what is now called the Challenge) in another meeting (possibly to become the "new" Challenge). This meeting takes place at the very beginning of the following year, and includes two wild cards. These wild cards can be any rider, but are primarily designed for any GP rider the previous year who missed out because of injury (missing GP's). Again, if a rider finished outside the Top 12 WITHOUT being injured, he is not eligible. That is why I suggest this is held in the new season, should any rider need to recover from injury.

Steve

[Mark]

2 hours ago, Fromafar said:

Just make it Top 12 then! Just causing their own problems.With the format there is always a chance that a Top  8 rider might not win aGP.

I wouldn't be against top 10 or 11.     The point I'm making is that some people want change for change sake.   Why get rid of Vaculik and Pedersen when the replacements have little chance of winning a GP or even shaking up the podium.     

Lambert is a very good young rider but maybe a year too soon for him.   At the World Cup he didn't score heavily either day.  Can you honestyly see him winning a 2019 GP.   I can't.  

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, Mark said:

I wouldn't be against top 10 or 11.     The point I'm making is that some people want change for change sake.   Why get rid of Vaculik and Pedersen when the replacements have little chance of winning a GP or even shaking up the podium.     

Lambert is a very good young rider but maybe a year too soon for him.   At the World Cup he didn't score heavily either day.  Can you honestyly see him winning a 2019 GP.   I can't.  

Surely is not about winning a GP ,it's about getting stuck in and he would certainly ruffle the feathers off  a few "old timers" going through motions .Can you see Hancock winning another GP, if so ,I would say that Lambert could win one with the format.Smarslik did it 1st time.I do agree that Vaculik,Zager and Pedersen are still worth a place but if you make rules saying Top8 ,too me if you don't make the cut you should not be in it the next season.Maybe 9th- 12th this season should be seeded to GP Challenge next season,as they are obviousGP standard.No easy answer IMO .

 

[Grand Central]

Actually I dont see an awful lot wrong with the set up we have currently.
If only it operated with a little more sporting integrity.
Top 8 being needed to ensure qualification and those below that have to sweat it out for a wild card pick (or have put themselves through the qulifiers as a safety net).
Top 3 from the Challenge and 4 honestly chosen wildcards is also fine.

The two real flaws I can see are

1) The strange way in which the qualifers were done and dusted so early in the season this year.
It has totally spolied the drama  and means that some riders know that they are in for next year when this years series was only at the half way point.
Daft.

2) The independent nature of the 'picks' is just bogus. Despite what some here will claim.
The picking of Holder last October was a sporting disgrace.
Thankfully he has not helped to hide the blushes of those who picked him with a rush of 'form' and he should be gone by the year end.
Sadly reputations have been tarnished irrevocably.

 

[Mark]

16 minutes ago, Fromafar said:

Surely is not about winning a GP ,it's about getting stuck in and he would certainly ruffle the feathers off  a few "old timers" going through motions .Can you see Hancock winning another GP, if so ,I would say that Lambert could win one with the format.Smarslik did it 1st time.I do agree that Vaculik,Zager and Pedersen are still worth a place but if you make rules saying Top8 ,too me if you don't make the cut you should not be in it the next season.Maybe 9th- 12th this season should be seeded to GP Challenge next season,as they are obviousGP standard.No easy answer IMO .

 

Hancock rides safely now but has reached a final in 2018, a few semi's and is in the top 8.   I'm not a fan but who can argue with the statistics.    I'd dispute Pedersen, Zagar, Doyle and Vaculik are going through the motions.   They all ride hard and add to the series.      I can't see Robert Lambert winning a GP in 2019 if he gets a wild card.   His record at Cardiff and in the SoN was modest.  You have to judge him at top level.   He is very good but maybe one more season in the Euro's ?    Be pleased to be proved wrong.

[Fromafar]

4 minutes ago, Mark said:

Hancock rides safely now but has reached a final in 2018, a few semi's and is in the top 8.   I'm not a fan but who can argue with the statistics.    I'd dispute Pedersen, Zagar, Doyle and Vaculik are going through the motions.   They all ride hard and add to the series.      I can't see Robert Lambert winning a GP in 2019 if he gets a wild card.   His record at Cardiff and in the SoN was modest.  You have to judge him at top level.   He is very good but maybe one more season in the Euro's ?    Be pleased to be proved wrong.

What I saying is Lambert is on the up and would add something to the series,there are afew Young Poles that would do the same, its not about whether they can Actualy win a GP in 1st season.

[Mark]

Just now, Fromafar said:

What I saying is Lambert is on the up and would add something to the series,there are afew Young Poles that would do the same, its not about whether they can Actualy win a GP in 1st season.

See your point but is changing Vaculik or Pedersen, proven to reach and win a final, for Lambert or another Pole a benefit.   I'd argue not.   We've done this to death now so maybe we should see what happens in October.     All the best.