Meaningful Second Halves anyone?

[norbold]

17 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...that's how the likes of Julian and Simon Wigg, Ken Matthews etc got their opportunities as did countless others I would hazzard to guess? Certainly was the case at Cowley.

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

[steve roberts]

34 minutes ago, norbold said:

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

...yes it always makes me smile when people condemn second halves in whatever shape or form but there was no denying that it did help to bring on British talent together with the advent of the old Second Division.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

Yes. Going back to "my" day, the second half novice/junior races were where I first saw the likes of Roy Trigg, Barry Thomas, Dave Jessup and Malcolm Simmons. It was great to see them progress through these second halves, into the team and then on to even bigger things.

Is the fact we don't have these regular opportunities to race competitively in front of crowds to gain experience now, the reason we don't have as many up-and-coming riders as we did back in the 70s and 80s and don't have as many world class stars like we did back then as well?

How many riders did you see Norbold over the years that you first thought god they won't make it but improved week on week.Malcolm Holloway,Martin Hewlett ,Alun Rossiter, are three fine examples of riders that i never envisaged being good anough for a mega tough British division 1 but they learned quickly you had to it was brutal dog eat dog being thrown in with the likes of Ashby,Kilby,Crump.

[MattK]

21 hours ago, topsoil said:

I would like to see every team run a junior team and have fixtures every week. Every team should enter into the NJL, MDL or SJL, even if it means adopting teams like Reading, Weymouth etc. This gives younger riders much more track time and lets them develop quicker. Would probably encourage more youngsters into the sport if they knew they were guaranteed more track time as well and would be a natural stepping stone into the National League. 

Unfortunately, these are often commercial suicide. You don't attract any new fans by running a junior team, but you do incur additional costs, so you are totally reliant on your main fans attending twice as many meetings. Coupled with that, if your senior team is doing poorly, fans can chose to only attend the junior team, so you are cannibalising your own customers, see Oxford in 2007 as an example.

Many teams have tried running both a senior team and a junior team (Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Rye House, Wolves (Cradley), Belle Vue, Coventry, Leicester) and yet only a handful continue to do so.

[norbold]

10 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

How many riders did you see Norbold over the years that you first thought god they won't make it but improved week on week.Malcolm Holloway,Martin Hewlett ,Alun Rossiter, are three fine examples of riders that i never envisaged being good anough for a mega tough British division 1 but they learned quickly you had to it was brutal dog eat dog being thrown in with the likes of Ashby,Kilby,Crump.

I'm not sure I can think of any riders in that category, Sidney. What I can remember is that the first time I saw Roy Trigg and Dave Jessup, who was 15 years old and having his first-ever competitive ride, I thought they are going to be good. Funnily enough, Dave Jessup's first race was against another first timer, the 16 year old Barry Thomas, who actually won the race. But there was something about Jessup's style and determination that convinced me he was going to make it and was a better prospect than Thomas.

I suppose of those I mentioned, the least impressive at first sight was Malcolm Simmons, but even then, although maybe not showing signs of the great star he was to become, certainly showed the makings of a good team rider.

Edited August 27, 2018 by norbold

[OveFundinFan]

I'm up for "second half" races to give juniors a chance of regular track time. And these juniors may well be "local" to the track, thus EXPENSES need not be high. No points money, just expenses to keep costs down.  Saw many juniors coming through the ranks at BV, even before Dent Oliver did the Rochdale team.in the early 70's.

[*JJ]

48 minutes ago, MattK said:

Unfortunately, these are often commercial suicide. You don't attract any new fans by running a junior team, but you do incur additional costs, so you are totally reliant on your main fans attending twice as many meetings. Coupled with that, if your senior team is doing poorly, fans can chose to only attend the junior team, so you are cannibalising your own customers, see Oxford in 2007 as an example.

Many teams have tried running both a senior team and a junior team (Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Rye House, Wolves (Cradley), Belle Vue, Coventry, Leicester) and yet only a handful continue to do so.

You are confusing second National League teams with Development League teams. At the moment, only Belle Vue do the former: I don't know how popular this is. However, plenty of teams have MDL/NJL/SDL teams, which run as 'second halves' after the main match. These don't incur any extra costs, as the riders are not paid, and the track staff  etc. are there anyway, and all other costs come under the main match.  DL teams are invaluable for riders to gain experience and skill before making the jump up to NL standard. Very few NL riders have come up any other way other than the Junior Speedway set up.

[Daniel Smith]

20 hours ago, cityrebel said:

From a personal point of view, I've never liked 2nd halves. I used to watch them as a kid at Wembley and Wimbledon, but I found them boring. I'd like speedway to be like football, done and dusted in 90 minutes.

Even back in the day stadiums were half empty once the 2nd half started. Was part of the reason they were dropped along with rider's unwillingness. 

Don't think there's a better solution, there's nothing wrong with the current 15 heats.

The issue is the fluidity of the current system. People today demand more for their money. Needs to be none stop entertainment from start to finish.

What is needed is a GP style format.

From heat 1, 2mins on and a countdown clock and ready to race on zero. Not ready, excluded with no replacement allowed. No return to pits or they too are excluded. 

Winning rider rides round for lap of honour, while doing so 2mins on for next heat and so on.

5min break every 4 heats. Allows for track grade, toilet/tea breaks for medical teams etc.

No more intervals, absolutely pointless.

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, norbold said:

I'm not sure I can think of any riders in that category, Sidney. What I can remember is that the first time I saw Roy Trigg and Dave Jessup, who was 15 years old and having his first-ever competitive ride, I thought they are going to be good. Funnily enough, Dave Jessup's first race was against another first timer, the 16 year old Barry Thomas, who actually won the race. But there was something about Jessup's style and determination that convinced me he was going to make it and was a better prospect than Thomas.

I suppose of those I mentioned, the least impressive at first sight was Malcolm Simmons, but even then, although maybe not showing signs of the great star he was to become, certainly showed the makings of a good team rider.

I know the calibre of the rider i mentioned were knowwhere the level of rider you mentioned Norbold my take on it was that it was very tough to make it in the old division 1 just coming through second halves.Plenty of riders failed over the years  thinking of Thomas how much pleasure did he give the fans over the years a real racer Simmo/Jessup both fine stylists.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Sidney the robin

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

I'm up for "second half" races to give juniors a chance of regular track time. And these juniors may well be "local" to the track, thus EXPENSES need not be high. No points money, just expenses to keep costs down.  Saw many juniors coming through the ranks at BV, even before Dent Oliver did the Rochdale team.in the early 70's.

Dent Oliver how far ahead of his time was he Ove? such a shame he did not live longer did so much as a team manager with young up/coming kids.And myself at times have forgot how  good a rider Dent was in his own right, Oliver and Frank Varey have always been Speedway heroes of mine

[britmet]

3 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

From heat 1, 2mins on and a countdown clock and ready to race on zero. Not ready, excluded with no replacement allowed. No return to pits or they too are excluded. 

Winning rider rides round for lap of honour, while doing so 2mins on for next heat and so on.

5min break every 4 heats. Allows for track grade, toilet/tea breaks for medical teams etc.

No more intervals, absolutely pointless.

I think we'd all like to see matches per se speeded up, but then the 15-heat programme would be even less of a night's entertainment and be over well within an hour, and fans would consider they've had even less for their money, esp'ly when you're forking out for a family  . . . then Second Halves certainly would be necessary to justify your spend.

[topsoil]

5 hours ago, MattK said:

Unfortunately, these are often commercial suicide. You don't attract any new fans by running a junior team, but you do incur additional costs, so you are totally reliant on your main fans attending twice as many meetings. Coupled with that, if your senior team is doing poorly, fans can chose to only attend the junior team, so you are cannibalising your own customers, see Oxford in 2007 as an example.

Many teams have tried running both a senior team and a junior team (Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Rye House, Wolves (Cradley), Belle Vue, Coventry, Leicester) and yet only a handful continue to do so.

I think you misunderstood me, I would like to see every team run a junior side as part of second half racing, not as a separate team on a different night. These juniors would be part of the NJL, MDL, SJL set up, rather than National League. It would be set up for riders starting off in the sport and on 125, 250 and 500cc, a stepping stone towards the National League.

I realise in the past many clubs have tried to run second teams in the National League and yes, it is very tough financially. Only clubs who are lucky enough to own their stadiums can really justify it, which is a shame, because I still think in the long run, it is the best way to establish riders in the sport.

[Daniel Smith]

39 minutes ago, britmet said:

I think we'd all like to see matches per se speeded up, but then the 15-heat programme would be even less of a night's entertainment and be over well within an hour, and fans would consider they've had even less for their money, esp'ly when you're forking out for a family  . . . then Second Halves certainly would be necessary to justify your spend.

I don't think that's true at all. Many today are just fed up of the constant standing about with nothing happening and meaningless chit chat from the centre green. What's required is for the race to be finished and on with the next one.

Families would most certainly be happy to be over and done with within at least 60-80mins

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

I don't think that's true at all. Many today are just fed up of the constant standing about with nothing happening and meaningless chit chat from the centre green. What's required is for the race to be finished and on with the next one.

Families would most certainly be happy to be over and done with within at least 60-80mins

...trouble is that if a meeting only consisted of fifteen races and each race started as soon as the previous one had finished the whole meeting would be done and dusted in 30 minutes at the maximum. 

[Icicle]

How about meaningful FIRST half races never mind 2nd half

[BWitcher]

42 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...trouble is that if a meeting only consisted of fifteen races and each race started as soon as the previous one had finished the whole meeting would be done and dusted in 30 minutes at the maximum. 

How on earth do you work that out? 

Based on an average of 15 mins for the 15 races..  plus 2 minutes between each race.. That's 45. There's generally track grading, fallers, tapes exclusions, a tactical or reserve ride meaning two in a row.. the nominated heat.

90 mins is a realistic time all clubs should be striving to achieve in my opinion.

[steve roberts]

53 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

How on earth do you work that out? 

Based on an average of 15 mins for the 15 races..  plus 2 minutes between each race.. That's 45. There's generally track grading, fallers, tapes exclusions, a tactical or reserve ride meaning two in a row.. the nominated heat.

90 mins is a realistic time all clubs should be striving to achieve in my opinion.

...I was taking Daniel's post literally "What's required is for the race to be finished and on with the next one"

My post was very much tongue firmly in cheek and not meant to be taken seriously knowing obviously what's involved with any particular meeting and differing scenarios that may arise and/or occur in same.

Edited August 27, 2018 by steve roberts

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

...I was taking Daniel's post literally "What's required is for the race to be finished and on with the next one"

My post was very much tongue firmly in cheek and not meant to be taken seriously knowing obviously what's involved with any particular meeting and differing scenarios that may arise and/or occur in same.

It literally can't be finished within 30 mins though, never mind at the maximum  Forget all the other issues. 

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by BWitcher

[Sings4Speedway]

22 hours ago, *JJ said:

You are confusing second National League teams with Development League teams. At the moment, only Belle Vue do the former: I don't know how popular this is. However, plenty of teams have MDL/NJL/SDL teams, which run as 'second halves' after the main match. These don't incur any extra costs, as the riders are not paid, and the track staff  etc. are there anyway, and all other costs come under the main match.  DL teams are invaluable for riders to gain experience and skill before making the jump up to NL standard. Very few NL riders have come up any other way other than the Junior Speedway set up.

Sadly until clubs embrace the development leagues the sport will continue to slide. There are scores of riders who started out in these leagues and prosper but they are still shunned by many promotions & the governing bodies. The costs imposed upon the volunteers who decide to run them are huge, the mileage the riders put in is vast as so few teams compete. Referees refuse to officiate over any more than an additional 6 heats and there is at least one club i know where the track staff wanted extra to stay on for the second half (which now no longer happens at that track).

[Grachan]

19 hours ago, Daniel Smith said:

I don't think that's true at all. Many today are just fed up of the constant standing about with nothing happening and meaningless chit chat from the centre green. What's required is for the race to be finished and on with the next one.

Families would most certainly be happy to be over and done with within at least 60-80mins

Sure, meetings need to move on fairly quickly, but 60 minutes is far too short. I would say 90 minutes is a more reasonable time.

You need some time between races. What you don't need is hanging around while a tractor chugs round for 5 minutes.