Newcastle 2019

[BWitcher]

4 hours ago, Pinny said:

You talk some garbage at times but youll obviously think your correct as usual however your not. 

Back in 03 and other years , heatleaders faced actual heatleaders in every race.  For instance in 2003 , our number 5 Watson would face Zagar , Harris and Sanchez and then Zagar and Harris in heat 13 . And then the nominated race . 

You cannot seriously tell me most riders riding as “heatleaders” now would of averaged the same or more than heatleaders 15 years ago?

Can you honestly say Thomas Jorgensen would of averaged 8 amongst the likes of Wilson, Stoney, Schott, Watson, Thorp, Harris, Coles etc ..... ? 

Most top PL riders whod make the full time transition to EL would only average around 5 in their debut seasons... Watson only rode one and a bit full time then dropped back down . His prime PL days were better than Scheiln has ever acheived in the same league.  2004 I think was his best PL year individually . 

The second tier now is pathetically weak compared to years gone by , I watched Pl racing every week from 99 to 2011 and the product , like the EL, was diluted year on year . 

Just looking at the updates sites , generally race times are the same now as they were in 2005. So in nearly 15 years , with most tracks becoming slicker and engines being tuned to a much better standard , times are still the same ? Why arent these better second tier riders hammering in much better race times than riders were 15 years ago? 

You take the top 15 averaged riders from a random year 15 ish years ago and compare them to the top 15 now, try telling me the current top 15 is better . If you do, your lying . 

The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the higher they will average.

That is indisputable maths.

I said nothing about the overall strength just pointed out your chosen heat leader trio did not prove your point as they are nowhere near as strong as Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein.

Edited August 15, 2019 by BWitcher

[Pinny]

30 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

The bigger the league, the more heat leaders there are and the higher they will average.

That is indisputable maths.

I said nothing about the overall strength just pointed out your chosen heat leader trio did not prove your point as they are nowhere near as strong as Harris, Nick Morris and Rory Schlein.

It was extremely rare for anyone to hit their assessed figures of 9.00 back in those days , i think Iversen was one of the only ones i seen do it along with Bjarne Pedersen and Zagar . 

Watson was even better and Smart was probably having his best ever season in the Uk That year until he was wiped out on turn 4 heat 1 against Glasgow on the eve of the GP.

there are obviously stronger heatleader trios from that season , Zagar , Harris and Ondrasik for Trelawny , Stead , Stoney and Karlsson for Workington , Gjedde, Allen and Fry for Swindon etc.... 

the strength of the second tier back then was a lot stronger than these days . 

Id rather , at their form in 03 (Newport) vs the Somerset trio now , Iversen , Watson and Smart over Morris, Harris and Scheiln any day of the week. Espiecially before Smarts crash when he was averaging more than Watson and Iversen... Watson was third in the averages that year at the time and wasnt allowed to ride in the pairs at Workington , which Smart and Iversen were second.

[geoff100]

Used to luv watching frank smart fighting with his bike a real showman racer, modern day riders dont come close to those guys, used to look forward to seeing carr, wilson , watson, stead, paul thorp sitting in an arm chair , gary stead riding his heart out, dont get me started on mal mackay lou sansom mile sampson , happy days.

[BWitcher]

7 minutes ago, Pinny said:

It was extremely rare for anyone to hit their assessed figures of 9.00 back in those days , i think Iversen was one of the only ones i seen do it along with Bjarne Pedersen and Zagar . 

Watson was even better and Smart was probably having his best ever season in the Uk That year until he was wiped out on turn 4 heat 1 against Glasgow on the eve of the GP.

there are obviously stronger heatleader trios from that season , Zagar , Harris and Ondrasik for Trelawny , Stead , Stoney and Karlsson for Workington , Gjedde, Allen and Fry for Swindon etc.... 

the strength of the second tier back then was a lot stronger than these days . 

Id rather , at their form in 03 (Newport) vs the Somerset trio now , Iversen , Watson and Smart over Morris, Harris and Scheiln any day of the week. Espiecially before Smarts crash when he was averaging more than Watson and Iversen... Watson was third in the averages that year at the time and wasnt allowed to ride in the pairs at Workington , which Smart and Iversen were second.

You're judging riders on what they went on to achieve, not what they were doing then.

You cannot argue. An 18 team league produces 54 heat leaders. An 11 team league produces 33. The strength of the rider is irrelevant.

What assessed riders are hitting 9.00 now?

Watson and Smart would be 6.5-7.5 at best riders in the current size league. That's been proven over and over.

You cannot argue against Maths Pinny, give it up, you're out your depth.

[StevePark]

Assessed (top-ish) riders are coming in on a 7pt ass ave now rather than 9.00.  Does that not tell you something?

[BWitcher]

10 minutes ago, StevePark said:

Assessed (top-ish) riders are coming in on a 7pt ass ave now rather than 9.00.  Does that not tell you something?

That tells you its much harder!

[BWitcher]

Harris, Morris (now getting fitness and form back) and Schlein can all beat some of the very best in the world when on it.

The same could never be said about Watson and Smart!

[JCookie]

I'm not bothered about getting into an argument about comparing averages, but the main thing that I miss from those days is the identity each team seemed to have, which is missing now. You knew the type of team (style wise) that each team would turn up with, there was always a good atmosphere with fans and usually some flash points with heroes/villains. Nowadays there's little, if any, of that kind of stuff.

It seems like you could transplant any of the PL teams into another one now and nobody would bat an eyelid - if Leicester's 1-7 was signed by Sheffield, for instance, nobody would think any differently. It used to be a treat seeing the likes of Wilson, Stonehewer, Shields, Bjerre, etc coming to your track and taking on your number 1 (inflated averages or not) but now everything just seems so dull in the PL. The lack of teams has certainly contributed but it just seems an overall lack of personality in all parts (riders, teams, clubs).

[cometbaz]

There is not enough difference between the two leagues now. 

In the days when Stoney was hitting maximums week in week out at workington he would do a meeting in the elite league and score 5 points as a reserve or second string.  Nowadays championship heat leaders can be heat leaders in the premiership. The whole set up has lost its way and teams have lost their identities.

[Pinny]

16 hours ago, BWitcher said:

You're judging riders on what they went on to achieve, not what they were doing then.

You cannot argue. An 18 team league produces 54 heat leaders. An 11 team league produces 33. The strength of the rider is irrelevant.

What assessed riders are hitting 9.00 now?

Watson and Smart would be 6.5-7.5 at best riders in the current size league. That's been proven over and over.

You cannot argue against Maths Pinny, give it up, you're out your depth.

Wato and Smart 6.5-7.5 riders in this league now? Lol! Behave yourself. Watson espiecially would clean up in the current second division. 

Scheiln, Morris and Harris capable of beating the best in the world whilst on it? Again get a grip. Morris has been rubbish all season , Scheiln is a shadow of the rider he was 5 years ago and Harris is on a rapid decline. 

You could also say world speedway in general is a lower standard now than it used to be - Doyle certainly wouldnt of won a world title in Crump , Nicki P and Tricks hey day . 

[mike7164]

23 hours ago, BWitcher said:

That tells you its much harder!

In my opinion it's not harder riders are having to fiddle their averages to keep them down to a certain level to guarantee a team place the following season, to which the team declaration averages and product is becoming more diluted season upon season to which again in my view  you have both more teams closing and riders retiring faster than ever before!       

[BWitcher]

8 hours ago, Pinny said:

Wato and Smart 6.5-7.5 riders in this league now? Lol! Behave yourself. Watson espiecially would clean up in the current second division. 

Scheiln, Morris and Harris capable of beating the best in the world whilst on it? Again get a grip. Morris has been rubbish all season , Scheiln is a shadow of the rider he was 5 years ago and Harris is on a rapid decline. 

You could also say world speedway in general is a lower standard now than it used to be - Doyle certainly wouldnt of won a world title in Crump , Nicki P and Tricks hey day . 

Pinny, you're not intelligent enough to understand basic Maths so there isn't any point continuing this conversation.

Watson couldn't clean up in an 18 team league, let alone an 11. 

We understand, you have a passion for second rate 2nd division Newport heat leaders who were barely better than Tony Atkin but that's it.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, mike7164 said:

In my opinion it's not harder riders are having to fiddle their averages to keep them down to a certain level to guarantee a team place the following season, to which the team declaration averages and product is becoming more diluted season upon season to which again in my view  you have both more teams closing and riders retiring faster than ever before!       

lmoa, Brilliant!

The maths just get better.... all the riders are fiddling low averages lol. An 11 team league is harder than an 18 team league in terms of obtaining an average. There isn't a debate, it's a fact.

A 7.00 assessed average suggests such an average is harder to obtain than when a 9.00 average is given. Again, it's not an 'opinion', it is fact. 9 is higher then 7.

[Pinny]

So Bwitcher your trying to say the 2019 Championship League is a stronger league than the 2003 Premier League???

The assessed figure has nothing to do with the league being stronger or weaker - back in the day the Premiership as it was then was an attractive league for Europes top youngsters - now it isnt. In all honesty most of the newcomers to the second tier these days are not good enough. 

Iversen, Zagar , Bjerre, Nicki P, Bjarne P etc were all highly rated before they signed for UK clubs, now the top foreigners either give the UK a miss completely or go top tier . 

I am of course intelligent enough to understand basic Maths or I wouldnt hold down such a successful job that involves Maths every minute of every work day , I am also intelligent enough to know the league is no where near as strong as it once was . I was a Newport fan and watched the league every week , you on the other hand are a Wolves fan or were at least . 

 

[BWitcher]

11 minutes ago, Pinny said:

So Bwitcher your trying to say the 2019 Championship League is a stronger league than the 2003 Premier League???

The assessed figure has nothing to do with the league being stronger or weaker - back in the day the Premiership as it was then was an attractive league for Europes top youngsters - now it isnt. In all honesty most of the newcomers to the second tier these days are not good enough. 

Iversen, Zagar , Bjerre, Nicki P, Bjarne P etc were all highly rated before they signed for UK clubs, now the top foreigners either give the UK a miss completely or go top tier . 

I am of course intelligent enough to understand basic Maths or I wouldnt hold down such a successful job that involves Maths every minute of every work day , I am also intelligent enough to know the league is no where near as strong as it once was . I was a Newport fan and watched the league every week , you on the other hand are a Wolves fan or were at least . 

 

Now you're trotting out the Sidney line of ' I watched it every week' which is utterly irrelevant.

I haven't said anything about the overall strength of the 2019 and 2003 leagues.

What I have said is quite clearly an 18 team league will have more heat leaders and higher averages than an 11 team league and that the heat leader trio you picked out were pretty average. There were far better ones.

The 2003 version had more strength in depth but because they were spread over more teams it diluted the strength of the teams somewhat. So yes, overall the 2003 league had more decent riders in total, but the actual teams, not too much difference at all between the top teams in each.

Edited August 16, 2019 by BWitcher

[Pinny]

1 minute ago, BWitcher said:

Now you're trotting out the Sidney line of ' I watched it every week' which is utterly irrelevant.

I haven't said anything about the overall strength of the 2019 and 2003 leagues.

What I have said is quite clearly an 18 team league will have more heat leaders and higher averages than an 11 team league and that the heat leader trio you picked out were pretty average. There were far better ones.

The 2003 version had more strength in depth but because they were spread over more teams it diluted the strength of the teams somewhat. So yes, overall the 2003 league had more decent riders in total, but the actual teams, not too much difference at all between the top teams in each.

Of course it will have more heatleaders ... that wasnt my argument .

my argument is the league in general is absolutely no where near the standard it was .

if you genuinely think Craig Watson in his prime would only average 6.5 in the current championship i can only assume your on a wind up. 

The EL back then was strong , and was a proper top flight when I think only Gollob was missing from the Gp field. Now theres only one full time GP rider in the league. 

I would genuinely pay good money to watch the old Premier league standard , would I to watch now? No. 

 

[bloom89]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:29 AM, Pinny said:

Of course it will have more heatleaders ... that wasnt my argument .

my argument is the league in general is absolutely no where near the standard it was .

if you genuinely think Craig Watson in his prime would only average 6.5 in the current championship i can only assume your on a wind up. 

The EL back then was strong , and was a proper top flight when I think only Gollob was missing from the Gp field. Now theres only one full time GP rider in the league. 

I would genuinely pay good money to watch the old Premier league standard , would I to watch now? No. 

 

To be fair to Watson didn’t he break his arm quite badly in his first meeting for Poole? I think that set him back a bit but he was still a quality rider.

[Terrace Grumbler]

Anyone who seriously considers the current Championship to be comparable with the PL of 15 or so years ago can’t have seen the PL of 15 years ago. What is on offer now isn’t even a pale imitation. 

Coming back to Newcastle (this is a Newcastle thread,, after all) for me the issue at the moment may be in a lack of application: the (relative) lack of talent compared to 2003 has to be a given. 

[MD]

2003 wasnt a year i enjoyed however you cant always compare averages of years gone by as at times they were calculated differently. Back then many PL teams had 3 genuine heat leaders at 1, 3 & 5 and some pretty decent riders through the rest of the order. I might be wrong but the team building limit around then was 45 points.

[Justgotmecpc]

2 hours ago, MD said:

2003 wasnt a year i enjoyed however you cant always compare averages of years gone by as at times they were calculated differently. Back then many PL teams had 3 genuine heat leaders at 1, 3 & 5 and some pretty decent riders through the rest of the order. I might be wrong but the team building limit around then was 45 points.

Hopefully come the winter that the powers that be ( Bspa ) get there fans heads on & produce a structure for next season that we can enjoy and look forward to going to a meeting.. or it could be damaging for promotion's for the future as some of our die hard fans won't be around forever so it's time for all ( promotion's ) to get things in order  ,,