German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

[Grachan]

26 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

The standard of riders in the league at the moment isn't relevant. That's an impossible debate. A 6pt rider now could be better than a 10pt rider of the 70's and vice versa (although far less likely in the second scenario). We can never prove that one way or another. 

The point is simple. The 10th best rider in the league in a large league in a 13 heat format appears a hell of a lot better than the same rider in a smaller league with a 15 heat format.

If we look at Poland, perhaps the best comparison in terms of 'strength' of rider, the 10th averaging rider is about 8.5. Again, not something that sets the pulse racing when that rider comes to town. Not sure how many times the top riders face each other in the Polish heat format?

I think you need to clarify your argument.

Are you putting Martin Ashby in a league the strength of today's league, with hardly any of the World's top riders involved, and which was set up using second division averages?

Are you using the same teams as in the 1970's, but using today's race format?

Are you having 7 teams using the top 49 riders in the World?

It depends what comparison you are using.

If you are putting a rider the standard of Martin Ashby in a league of today's GB standard, then he is a number one. If you are putting a rider of his standard in a league of 7 teams using the best 49 riders in the World then he'd be a second or third heatleader, or possibly even a second string.

It depends on which scenario you are using.

[BWitcher]

The only valid comparison.

You don't change the riders involved, simply the league size and heat format. 

My point is simply, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you have. Especially in a 13 heat format.

Hence in the 70's you had a lot more 'star' riders who had that mystique about them because you rarely saw them get beat.

When it actually came down to it though, you still had a select few who were above the others as you do in every era.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[JC71]

12 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Spot on Chunky.

Sidney likes to say 'forget averages'. It's a ridiculous statement. Your entire perception of how good a rider is quite simply is based upon how often you see him win. In a big league, with a format where the big guns don't race that often in a meeting and lower end of sides that weren't all that great it wasn't often you saw many, many riders get beat. 

A different race format and a few less teams in the division and suddenly those 2nd and 3rd heat leaders (and some of the no 1's) start getting beat on a much more regular basis, running regular last places towards end of meetings and their air of invincibility is gone and your whole perception of how 'good' they are changes.

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

[Grand Central]

7 hours ago, JC71 said:

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

No need to be apologetic at all.
You have got the point well  and used a good hypothetical analogy to express it.

I offer no hope that this will be understood by the same old faces who have been spouting their nonsense for years.

[BWitcher]

9 hours ago, JC71 said:

Hi all, I'm quite the lurker on here, so please be gentle...........

Reading what you have posted has made me think about averages...... I'm not disputing what you have said at all, and this post is more for discussion than argument (for want of a better word), however.........

To my thinking, (and I'm happy to accept I may be being niave about it), averages are a finite number, in the sense that in a heat, some wins, someone comes last...... for that heat the winner has an average (I know, not strictly true, nothing 'average' about it) of 12.00, the person finishing last 0.00

Here's where it goes a bit hypothetical, (but bear with me, because I do bring it back to a point) but let's say next year, 14 of the GP riders are picked into 2 teams, and go racing around the the country once a week at various tracks, in an exhibition type league......... it would be possible that at the end of the season, 20 meetings on, someone could have anaverage of 0.00.....last in every heat....... he'd look terrible on paper, yet in reality he'd be one of the best riders in the world....... and in 50 years time, when our grandchildren look back, all they would see would be the 0.00 average..... they would look down their nose at said rider........

Not sure if my point is coming through, hope you understand what I am trying to say...... and it's not meant as an argument,  just a thought, I'm defo not disagreeing with your point

On a side note, as I was working a nightshift last Saturday, and 'watched' the GP on updates, I've only caught up with the programme today........ for those who say Tai isn't British, he sure looked British on the podium showing off his Union Jack on his race suit...... I love the bloke

 

You've got it spot on. 

In a similar fashion it's why riders like Andy Smith, Chris Harris and now Craig Cook have been mocked over the years as being rubbish because they struggled in the GP's.

Someone who just watches GP speedway on TV and has no knowledge of league racing would really think they were awful!

Edited September 26, 2018 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, Grand Central said:

No need to be apologetic at all.
You have got the point well  and used a good hypothetical analogy to express it.

I offer no hope that this will be understood by the same old faces who have been spouting their nonsense for years.

An OPINION i  respect yours why dont you do the same if you are capable.

[BWitcher]

6 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

An OPINION i  respect yours why dont you do the same if you are capable.

There are no opinions being discussed. This is your problem, you don't understand what an opinion actually is.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying 5+5 = 20 because it's your 'opinion'.

Edited September 26, 2018 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin]

5 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

There are no opinions being discussed. This is your problem, you don't understand what an opinion actually is.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying 5+5 = 20 because it's your 'opinion'.

No i think Grachan answered your posts brilliantly and he does not care if he is right or wrong and  neither do i. Also Grachan has seen those riders so his opinion!!!!!!! is more valid.Wont mention it again but will enjoy telling you again i do believe the top riders and the BL from 1969-1986 was of  a very high standard and  i will never waver from that averages or no averages.

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:

No i think Grachan answered your posts brilliantly and he does not care if he is right or wrong and  neither do i. Also Grachan has seen those riders so his opinion!!!!!!! is more valid.Wont mention it again but will enjoy telling you again i do believe the top riders and the BL from 1969-1986 was of  a very high standard and  i will never waver from that averages or no averages.

Grachan has answered them brilliantly once he understood what the discussion was.

He agreed. Ashby in the format as it is now would be a SECOND/THIRD heat leader.

Glad you finally agreed Sidney.

 

[Sidney the robin]

9 hours ago, BWitcher said:

You've got it spot on. 

In a similar fashion it's why riders like Andy Smith, Chris Harris and now Craig Cook have been mocked over the years as being rubbish because they struggled in the GP's.

Someone who just watches GP speedway on TV and has no knowledge of league racing would really think they were awful!

Spot on you had  no knowledge of the riders riding in the late 60s,70s or 80s did you   you never see them ride.Yet you make things up as you go along to suit your own argument pretty sad really but nothing changes.

 

[BWitcher]

2 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Spot on you had  no knowledge of the riders riding in the late 60s,70s or 80s did you   you never see them ride.Yet you make things up as you go along to suit your own argument pretty sad really but nothing changes.

 

Sidney, when you don't understand something and make no effort to understand it, it's best if you simply say nothing.

I don't have to make anything up, I don't have an 'argument'. What I have said is bona fide fact and no matter how much you bleat and whinge it won't change it. 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by BWitcher

[JC71]

9 hours ago, BWitcher said:

There are no opinions being discussed. This is your problem, you don't understand what an opinion actually is.

Your argument is the equivalent of saying 5+5 = 20 because it's your 'opinion'.

On a similar vein...... John Wayne was a Yugoslav .......... thats always my counter to the 'opinion' statement

[tyler42]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:58 PM, BWitcher said:

The only valid comparison.

You don't change the riders involved, simply the league size and heat format. 

My point is simply, the bigger the league the more 'stars' you have. Especially in a 13 heat format.

Hence in the 70's you had a lot more 'star' riders who had that mystique about them because you rarely saw them get beat.

When it actually came down to it though, you still had a select few who were above the others as you do in every era.

Would you say that speedway in the uk today, is of a higher standard than back in the 70's/80's? 

[waiheke1]

On 10/7/2018 at 2:16 PM, tyler42 said:

Would you say that speedway in the uk today, is of a higher standard than back in the 70's/80's? 

Relative to world standards, clearly it is lower. 

But i think you are missing the point around how the race format and number of teams in the league influences perception of riders ability.

Edited October 8, 2018 by waiheke1

[IainB]

On 9/24/2018 at 2:11 AM, BWitcher said:

No need for fantasy Speedibee/Adonis.

We're still waiting for the 'at least twelve' British riders who are/were better than Tai Woffinden...

I'm still waiting to find out who his rider lad is!!!