German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

[Grand Central]

22 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

It isn't an opinion. It is absolute fact.

The 30th best rider in the 70's would be averaging 8.5+

The 30th best rider in Poland for example is around 6.5.

Hence the bigger the league, the more 'stars' it appears to have. That is indisputable.

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Edited September 25, 2018 by Grand Central

[Sidney the robin]

22 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

All i know is most teams in the BL had an in/out number 1 and usually two good heat leaders as well put averages to one side for a moment..Belle Vue ( 1972 )Mauger Collins Sjosten Pusey we saw them our own eye told us that they were good riders.Also go back to the British Finals with the Aussies/ New Zealander's in  mega line ups  your instinct told you they were good riders the level was high.Chunky is SPOT on though and he could well be right nobody can prove it my take on it is go on your own instinct and experience and decide that way.

[BWitcher]

13 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

All i know is most teams in the BL had an in/out number 1 and usually two good heat leaders as well put averages to one side for a moment..Belle Vue ( 1972 )Mauger Collins Sjosten Pusey we saw them our own eye told us that they were good riders.Also go back to the British Finals with the Aussies/ New Zealander's in  mega line ups  your instinct told you they were good riders the level was high.Chunky is SPOT on though and he could well be right nobody can prove it my take on it is go on your own instinct and experience and decide that way.

Oh jesus.

Of course they had a No 1 and two good heat leaders.  What made them a No 1 and heat leaders.. ah yes, their average. So no, you can't 'put their averages to one side for a moment'.

Change the heat format in the 70's to 15 heats.. All of a sudden over half of those out and out No 1's suddenly aren't so good anymore. Knock bonus pts of their average and they're even lower. Meanwhile those 2nd heat leaders have dropped down even further.

Combine the top 70 or so riders into a ten team league and those 'good 3rd heat leaders' are now bog standard 2nd strings, bordering on reserves and don't ever get remembered the way they are now.

Your instinct told you nothing. You thought they were good because you didn't see them lose very often.

Hence when it came to the British Final, it was usually the same small crop of riders who contested the top places most years.. because the others were far lower than them than their league figures actually showed.

 

[chunky]

1 hour ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Because they don't want to...

Steve

[BWitcher]

1 hour ago, Grand Central said:

This is SO beyond question.

Why can't some people get it?

Because the fabric of many of their arguments completely collapses

[chunky]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Hence when it came to the British Final, it was usually the same small crop of riders who contested the top places most years.. because the others were far lower than them than their league figures actually showed.

Again, you can only make comparisons between riders who rode against each other, and not somebody from different eras who were both No.4 in their respective teams.

One comment has always stuck with me... Back in the 70's, I had someone complaining that Larry Ross was the "worst No. 1 in the league". Really? Is that HIS fault that nobody else in the team was riding better? Had he been fourth in the Wimbledon averages, they would have been celebrating the fact that he was the "best No. 4 in the league"!

You get my point? It is all relative...

Steve

[MARK246]

It is impossible to compare different eras, I followed Martin Ashby and Swindon up and down the country in 70s. I wouldn't cross the road to watch Woffinden, judging by the crowd sizes neither will anyone else. That's the only statistics that matter, watchable or blah.

[BWitcher]

17 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

It is impossible to compare different eras, I followed Martin Ashby and Swindon up and down the country in 70s. I wouldn't cross the road to watch Woffinden, judging by the crowd sizes neither will anyone else. That's the only statistics that matter, watchable or blah.

Probably the most worthless contribution so far to the debate.

Although if you want to go down that route, Woffinden is watched by bigger crowds in the leagues he rides in than Ashby ever was. 

And again, had Ashby been riding in a different format he wouldn't have been anywhere near the hero he was.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Probably the most worthless contribution so far to the debate.

Although if you want to go down that route, Woffinden is watched by bigger crowds in the leagues he rides in than Ashby ever was. 

And again, had Ashby been riding in a different format he wouldn't have been anywhere near the hero he was.

Total rubbish from someone who probably did not see him ride and that comment is insulting to Ashby honestly to TRY to win a debate you don't half scrape the barrel.By the way another one for you to try to talk down Penhall,Gundersen, Grahame,Collins CRADLEY did those four have inflated averages ???? ( only 2 future champs in there) why don't you ask Peter Adams how good those four were.!!!!

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sidney the robin

[BWitcher]

18 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

Total rubbish from someone who probably did not see him ride and that comment is insulting to Ashby honestly to TRY to win a debate you don't half scrape the barrel.By the way another one for you to try to talk down Penhall,Gundersen, Grahame,Collins CRADLEY did those four have inflated averages ???? ( only 2 future champs in there) why don't you ask Peter Adams how good those four were.!!!!

Nothing to do with total rubbish Sidney.

It is stone cold fact.

I'm not trying to win the debate... it isn't even a debate. You don't debate something that is set in stone.

The post I replied too was nonsense. A Swindon fan saying he travelled the country to watch Martin Ashby but wouldn't watch Woffinden. Really? What a surprise. Now had Woffinden plied his trade for Swindon for ten years he would have quite a different attitude. It has zero relevance to the ability of either rider.

Ashby was a legend for Swindon, no doubt. But he was still quite a bit below the level of the big guns of the day. Whilst he was sporting averages of around 10-10.2... Ivan Mauger would be 11+.

Under today's format, the real top guys averages would still stay strong as they beat the vast majority of other riders. Riders such as Ashby begin to tumble as they come up against the Maugers of the league more often.. and lose more often. He'd be around 8.5 to 9pt at best. 

 

 

 

[MARK246]

3 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

 

The post I replied too was nonsense. A Swindon fan saying he travelled the country to watch Martin Ashby but wouldn't watch Woffinden. Really? What a surprise. Now had Woffinden plied his trade for Swindon for ten years he would have quite a different attitude. It has zero relevance to the ability of either rider.

Ashby was a legend for Swindon, no doubt. But he was still quite a bit below the level of the big guns of the day. Whilst he was sporting averages of around 10-10.2... Ivan Mauger would be 11+.


 

 

 

Ashby was in the top ten averages 1972/73/74 and 76 irrelevant of format the top ten would stay the same, even if the totals reduced. 

I have been to race meetings, some riders create a buzz of anticipation, Woffinden doesn't, Ashby always did.

 

 

[BWitcher]

29 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

 

Ashby was in the top ten averages 1972/73/74 and 76 irrelevant of format the top ten would stay the same, even if the totals reduced. 

I have been to race meetings, some riders create a buzz of anticipation, Woffinden doesn't, Ashby always did.

 

 

Completely disagree that Woffinden doesn't create a buzz of anticipation. Crowds increased when he rode for Wolves in 2016 for a short spell, both at home and away.

The reason the top 10-15 riders were so anticipated in the 70's was because you didn't see them so often.. and most importantly you rarely saw them get beat.. so they had much more of a god like status.

If you're seeing them 3-4 times a season, plus regularly on TV and in Grand Prixs AND you're seeing them get beat far, far more often, they haven't got that mystique around them.
 

Edited to add: It's a good argument for a 'bigger league'. A bigger league creates more heat leaders, creates more 'out and out' no 1's and creates more 'stars'. So the effects you talk about can over time be replicated.

Incidentally.. the THIRD highest averaging rider in the BL of today is 8.13. So I was over estimating Ashby by some distance. He'd be a 7.5 guy in this format and certainly wouldn't be creating any kind of 'buzz'. That's the massive difference league size and heat formats can make.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[ColinMills]

I would guess most people here could name the teams no1 during the gulf oil british league. riders did create buzz and interest, for me Olsen...seeing people like chris pusey, soen sjosten just once a year was a reason to get to the track...for me, I cant be done with rider sharing, we all different, I even preferred 13 heat format,..it worked, rules were kept too, more than today. we all different

[Grachan]

3 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Completely disagree that Woffinden doesn't create a buzz of anticipation. Crowds increased when he rode for Wolves in 2016 for a short spell, both at home and away.

The reason the top 10-15 riders were so anticipated in the 70's was because you didn't see them so often.. and most importantly you rarely saw them get beat.. so they had much more of a god like status.

If you're seeing them 3-4 times a season, plus regularly on TV and in Grand Prixs AND you're seeing them get beat far, far more often, they haven't got that mystique around them.
 

Edited to add: It's a good argument for a 'bigger league'. A bigger league creates more heat leaders, creates more 'out and out' no 1's and creates more 'stars'. So the effects you talk about can over time be replicated.

Incidentally.. the THIRD highest averaging rider in the BL of today is 8.13. So I was over estimating Ashby by some distance. He'd be a 7.5 guy in this format and certainly wouldn't be creating any kind of 'buzz'. That's the massive difference league size and heat formats can make.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be provocative, but no way would Martin Ashby be a 7.5 man. He was out and out number one for many years. He'd easily get above 8 using the current format, which is where number ones are mainly.

Whatever the format, he'd still have been the number one. 

[BWitcher]

44 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I'm not sure if you're deliberately trying to be provocative, but no way would Martin Ashby be a 7.5 man. He was out and out number one for many years. He'd easily get above 8 using the current format, which is where number ones are mainly.

Whatever the format, he'd still have been the number one. 

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[MARK246]

5 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

[nw42]

2 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

True, until rider control whisked them away.

[BWitcher]

46 minutes ago, MARK246 said:

Don't forget the idea this season as a rider, is to stay below an 8 point average. Otherwise you could be unemployable in 2019.

The restrictions on average limits were not so much of a problem in the 70s. Which meant the top riders were free to score what they wanted, not what they are told to score, like now.

Barely relevant.

In the 70's for example, Ashby might race Mauger twice in a season. Once at home, once away (putting aside tacs for the moment). In a set up as it is now, he'd be racing him 12 times. Take the same with the 2nd and 3rd best riders in the league and so on... the difference to the average soon builds up.

[Grachan]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Another not grasping it.

The THIRD highest averaging rider in the top flight this season is 8.13.

And no there's a good chance he wouldn't be a Number one. If he's 10th in the averages, in a 7 team league...  or even an 8 team league there's a good chance he won't be at No 1. 

However, we'll go with getting above 8.... tell me, who gets remembered as being 'great', someone you've watched for years averaging 10+ or someone averaging above 8-8.5. The first one has an awe, a mystique about them.. the second one... doesn't.

Well, I guess it depends on what level you are setting the riders in the league. With a league of the strength of the league today he'd be a number one.

Of course, if you are just taking the top riders in the World and fitting them into 7 teams from the top downwards, then maybe he would be a 7 point rider. But that is not today's format.

I would say that the only person better than Martin Ashby was who is in the league at the moment is Jason Doyle.

And riders nowadays do, I believe, ride conservatively sometimes to ensure their averages stay lower.

[BWitcher]

3 minutes ago, Grachan said:

Well, I guess it depends on what level you are setting the riders in the league. With a league of the strength of the league today he'd be a number one.

Of course, if you are just taking the top riders in the World and fitting them into 7 teams from the top downwards, then maybe he would be a 7 point rider. But that is not today's format.

I would say that the only person better than Martin Ashby was who is in the league at the moment is Jason Doyle.

And riders nowadays do, I believe, ride conservatively sometimes to ensure their averages stay lower.

The standard of riders in the league at the moment isn't relevant. That's an impossible debate. A 6pt rider now could be better than a 10pt rider of the 70's and vice versa (although far less likely in the second scenario). We can never prove that one way or another. 

The point is simple. The 10th best rider in the league in a large league in a 13 heat format appears a hell of a lot better than the same rider in a smaller league with a 15 heat format.

If we look at Poland, perhaps the best comparison in terms of 'strength' of rider, the 10th averaging rider is about 8.5. Again, not something that sets the pulse racing when that rider comes to town. Not sure how many times the top riders face each other in the Polish heat format?