German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

[Gavan]

23 minutes ago, James Carter said:

 

Slightly biased but as a Bradford supported but in my opinion Havelock would have won a GP series in 1992 as he was on absolute fire and Nielsen wasnt riding at his best that year. The back injury scuppered Havelock as he was never quite the same rider when he came back. Loram again was brilliant and I don't think there was anyone around at the time who could win so many races from 4th place (possibly Screen)

Speaking to my Dad (who's watched speedway since 1965) and he rates Peter Collins as the best GB rider of the 'past' but TW must be right up there. Fantastic all round rider and seems to have the absolute right temperament

Sorry but i could never warm to Havvy but no getting away from his achievements and as i said in 1992 in my opinion only Per Jonsson was in similar form.

Thats the only thing i dont get about some people..............we can all dislike certain riders thats normal...............but to say they havent achieved anyhting because of that is a tad absurd to me.

Couple of people on here dont like Tai, Pedersen or Hancock but nobody can take away what they have done in the sport.

Always reminds me of a friend of mine a Spurs fan.........................Sheringham was god when he was at Spurs.......moved to Man Utd and he hated him...........back to Spurs and a god again lol

[waiheke1]

Surely the only two other post war Brits with a potential claim at being the greatest Brits are the two PCs.

Peter Craven won two world titles, maybe could have won more but gor his tragic death. Most on here seem to believe he would have won no more than 1 in a gp series.

Peter Collins was arguably the best rider in the world in 76/77. His effort in finishing 2nd in 77 is one of the alltine amazing feats. He had a superb record in the WTC and world pairs. 

Tai though i think has to rank above them. Certainly he is considerably better from the start and round the first bend thsn Peter Collins. Assuming he winsca third world title i think it is fair to say also he has been the best overall ider in the world in those years, even if Hampel in 13 and Zmarzlik in 18 would have some clsim.

Woffy has also been superb for GB, even if his team mates mean he hasnt replicated the international success of Collins.

All three regsrded as superb team riders, actually one area where collins was imo better than Tai.

Who would have thought itvwhen everyone was moaning about him getting a wildcard in 2013!?!

Next question is where would he rank against other 3x world chsmpions? Behind Crump and Olsen but ahead of Gundersen and Pedersen?

[one of clubs]

Tai will never eclipse PC in my eyes. A potential three world individual championship honours simply does not cut the mustard, when compared to PC's ten team, individual and pairs (that must be a first, two riders from the same club and city) honours. It is as simple as that. 

[iris123]

Even if Tai wins this year it won’t put him ahead of Nicki imo.Nicki has more GP wins and more silver and bronze medals atm.But Tai has had a far shorter career and could easily end up with a better record

[longlivefrankie]

Just to add fuel to fire maybe, there are three British riders who have won  2 world individual championships at the moment 

 

freddie williams

peter craven

tai woffinden

 

if tai collects his third he will be britains best ever judged by the only thing that really matters IMO 

 

just as 

 

Ivan Mauger is new zealands 

tony rickardsson is swedens 

 

and so on

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by longlivefrankie

[BWitcher]

46 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

Would he have been in a gp series in 92?

Good point.. he may well have been. He averaged 9.89 for Bradford in 1991... interestingly in 92 it was only 9.50.

Although he deserved his World Title that year I do think that, although he would have been in strong contention, Ermolenko and Nielsen would have beaten him over the course of the season. They were 10.25 and 10.24 that year respectively. Per Jonsson also would have been a contender, 10.04.

This of course in a time when the BL averages meant something!

 

[BWitcher]

31 minutes ago, one of clubs said:

Tai will never eclipse PC in my eyes. A potential three world individual championship honours simply does not cut the mustard, when compared to PC's ten team, individual and pairs (that must be a first, two riders from the same club and city) honours. It is as simple as that. 

Team and Pairs are somewhat of an irrelevance in this discussion as no matter how good you are, you need partners/team mates.

[waytogo28]

35 minutes ago, longlivefrankie said:

if tai collects his third he will be britains best ever judged by the only thing that really matters IMO 

I am in that camp. Tai is the greatest ever British rider of the modern era ( post-war) for me. I feel sure that had he lived Peter Craven would have got at least one more and may have joined the five and possibly even the six list. I think that Tai will get at least one more than three ( don't want to curse the next GP! ) and he is capable of going even further. Exceptional skills and a great racing brain.

[waiheke1]

11 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Team and Pairs are somewhat of an irrelevance in this discussion as no matter how good you are, you need partners/team mates.

Somewhat agree, though PC scoring 3 consecutive WTC maximums was quite some achievement, as was winning the pairs with 4 different partners. 

That said its hard to see how Tai could hsve performed better in the psirs this year (except for the final, PC would hsve tried to team ride!) and when GB picked up silver in thr SWC. Noting also that the cslibre of riders in these events is typically sttonger than that England faced in the same events in PCs era. 

[waiheke1]

21 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Good point.. he may well have been. He averaged 9.89 for Bradford in 1991... interestingly in 92 it was only 9.50.

Although he deserved his World Title that year I do think that, although he would have been in strong contention, Ermolenko and Nielsen would have beaten him over the course of the season. They were 10.25 and 10.24 that year respectively. Per Jonsson also would have been a contender, 10.04.

This of course in a time when the BL averages meant something!

 

I think he would hsve relied on a wild card. He would have been very unlikely to be in the 1991 gp field. His 14th place in the overseas final indicates it would have been unlikely he would have made it through qualifiers.

Would he hsve deserved a wildcard on merit assuming there were 4 wildcards to hsnd out? 

[BWitcher]

12 minutes ago, waiheke1 said:

I think he would hsve relied on a wild card. He would have been very unlikely to be in the 1991 gp field. His 14th place in the overseas final indicates it would have been unlikely he would have made it through qualifiers.

Would he hsve deserved a wildcard on merit assuming there were 4 wildcards to hsnd out? 

I suppose it depends which other British riders were in. Not likely though I suspect.

It does in one way highlight the main drawback with the GB's.. someone can put together the season of their career and in the past end up World Champion, or go close to it..  Now, you've got to get in first.. then put that season together.

[iris123]

A better league average doesn’t mean too much.Olsens 1976 average was better than his 1975 one,yet he failed to make the final in 1976 as reigning world champion

[Sidney the robin]

2 hours ago, Grachan said:

If Tai win's 3 titles he will certainly be a contender for best British rider, but I think Peter Craven would still have a pretty good case.

I never saw Craven ride, but he didn't just win 2 World titles, but he won them in the era of Fundin and Briggs - and may well have gone on to win more for all we know, had he not lost his life.

I'd say it's between those two though, with Collins and Lee close behind. Lee at his best, however, is probably the best rider I ever saw. But he lacked the consistency and longevity.

Pretty much how i feel you cannot forget that Craven was about in a very good era Fundin awesome Briggs a force for a long time  he won two titles before his death at 29.Who is to say he would not  of won more titles  Collins and Lee are in the mix and i am in agreement with you the best of Lee was as good as anybody i have ever seen ride.Back to Tai brilliant he deserves every accolade he gets a great rider and i hope he goes on and wins more titles.

[Hodgy]

Let’s not lose sight of the essential supporting cast; engine tuner and back room staff. Takes a team effort. 

[James Carter]

1 hour ago, BWitcher said:

Good point.. he may well have been. He averaged 9.89 for Bradford in 1991... interestingly in 92 it was only 9.50.

Although he deserved his World Title that year I do think that, although he would have been in strong contention, Ermolenko and Nielsen would have beaten him over the course of the season. They were 10.25 and 10.24 that year respectively. Per Jonsson also would have been a contender, 10.04.

This of course in a time when the BL averages meant something!

 

There's not a huge amount of differences in those averages is there?

I still think he would have won the sgp in 92. I understand why people didn't warm to him as he did seem to have a but of a fan club around him. 

Also he relied on a big gate at the peak of his career whilst in his early days he was actually a really good rider from the back. I remember seeing him beat Erik Gunderson 3 times in one match at Odsal which was probably 88 which was at the time unheard of!!!

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, James Carter said:

There's not a huge amount of differences in those averages is there?

I still think he would have won the sgp in 92. I understand why people didn't warm to him as he did seem to have a but of a fan club around him. 

Also he relied on a big gate at the peak of his career whilst in his early days he was actually a really good rider from the back. I remember seeing him beat Erik Gunderson 3 times in one match at Odsal which was probably 88 which was at the time unheard of!!!

0.75 of a pt is a fair bit.

 

[MunichMassive]

You could open up a new thread for finding out who is the best ever british rider. An extra thread just for this issue would be perfect, a never ending story this...

[bruno]

Will Tai be younger if he wins his 3rd title than what Ivan was when he won his first? Therefore could Tai go on to win 7!

[waiheke1]

4 hours ago, iris123 said:

A better league average doesn’t mean too much.Olsens 1976 average was better than his 1975 one,yet he failed to make the final in 1976 as reigning world champion

Didnt he have a fall and an ef?

He won the BLRC and nordic final and top scored in the world pairs, so he hardly had a bad season. Would have been in the mix for a rostrum place in a gp series in 76 id say.

[chunky]

5 hours ago, waiheke1 said:

Somewhat agree, though PC scoring 3 consecutive WTC maximums was quite some achievement, as was winning the pairs with 4 different partners. 

There is certainly some merit to winning the pairs - although nobody seems to give Szczakiel any credit for him winning the pairs - with a maximum.

Regarding Collins in the WTC, it was an achievement, but the ONLY true superstar he beat was Michanek. You could perhaps add Sjosten in 74, but realistically, he shouldn't have been too troubled against the others.

Steve