German GP Teterow Saturday September 22nd

[chunky]

4 hours ago, iris123 said:

A better league average doesn’t mean too much.Olsens 1976 average was better than his 1975 one,yet he failed to make the final in 1976 as reigning world champion

Look at Nielsen. A giant in the BL but he couldn't compete with his World Final opponents for several years...

And what did a superb string of BL averages do at world level for Eric Boocock?

Steve

Edited September 24, 2018 by chunky

[chunky]

3 hours ago, MunichMassive said:

You could open up a new thread for finding out who is the best ever british rider. An extra thread just for this issue would be perfect, a never ending story this...

Been done - on several occasions...

Steve

[Gavan]

Great great rider that PC was you can’t say he was better than Tai because he won pairs and world team cups.

Its irrelevant as Tai has had nobody at his level to compete with him like PC did. Maybe now with Lambert Tai will get other team golds 

[ColinMills]

36 minutes ago, Gavan said:

Great great rider that PC was you can’t say he was better than Tai because he won pairs and world team cups.

Its irrelevant as Tai has had nobody at his level to compete with him like PC did. Maybe now with Lambert Tai will get other team golds 

spot on...what a rich vein of riders England had all at the same time...louis, Jessup, betts, simmo, Collins, ashby, kennet, Morton, Wilson, wyer.....and we saw these riders every week, no wonder it thrived

Edited September 25, 2018 by ColinMills

[Sidney the robin]

3 hours ago, ColinMills said:

spot on...what a rich vein of riders England had all at the same time...louis, Jessup, betts, simmo, Collins, ashby, kennet, Morton, Wilson, wyer.....and we saw these riders every week, no wonder it thrived

Spot on Colin you have to take into consideration the era and this era was  a very  very strong one god you were doing very well just to get near a WTC squad.

[Sidney the robin]

7 hours ago, bruno said:

Will Tai be younger if he wins his 3rd title than what Ivan was when he won his first? Therefore could Tai go on to win 7!

If he wins seven Bruno that would be great but does that tell you the overall level might not be as tough as some of the other era's.Also with the way the series is now the scoring system (etc) i believe Ivan winning 6 one off finals was alot harder than winning the series as it is now both of course take different qualities to do so.

[bruno]

Not sure about that Sid id argue that any one of the 15 could win a gp on any given night although I suppose you could argue realistically only maybe half a dozen if that ,could win it overall. Saying that in the one offs there were very few shocks over the years and again realistically only half a dozen had a chance on the night. 

[Sidney the robin]

27 minutes ago, bruno said:

Not sure about that Sid id argue that any one of the 15 could win a gp on any given night although I suppose you could argue realistically only maybe half a dozen if that ,could win it overall. Saying that in the one offs there were very few shocks over the years and again realistically only half a dozen had a chance on the night. 

Just felt the pressure was different Bruno you have a poor Gp you know you can regroup and win the next two to make up.In the old format if you needed 8 to qualify and you had two efs you were in trouble.Hand on heart i believe Tai,Bartosz, Doyley, Magic are the only riders at the moment who can win over a longer format that could change.But as you pointed out generally in the 70s did you ever look farther than Mauger, Olsen, Michanek,Lee,Collins ?

[OveFundinFan]

When trying to determine who is the greatest from the Uk you have to take into account what was going on at different times.  Late 50's-early 60's there were 5 riders starting from 30 yard back - Craven, Briggs, Moore, Knutsson and Fundin - the untouchables, the aliens, call them what you will, it was between them 5, but that competition was HOT, but only one from the UK..  They really were a cut above the rest.    Go into the 70's and the field was MUCH wider, Louis, Jessup, Betts, Simmo, Collins, Ashby, Kennet, Morton, Wilson, Wyer already been mentioned - throw in some fabulous foreigners and becoming a UK world champ became seriously more difficult due to the spread of talent.  Same with the 80's/early 90's.  Now, from the UK, Tai has has had no serious competition from a UK rider, and I got to say, a few years when the number of GP riders that could win a GP series has been depleted.  Not today though, 

This all makes determining who is the greatest Uk world champ ever very difficult.   I prefer to leave things at that - each era we have had something special, I just treasure that in my mind. We never going to get Craven, Collins, Lee, Woffinden on the same track with the same machines. Just treasure what we have had.

Edited September 25, 2018 by OveFundinFan

[bill94d]

14 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

When trying to determine who is the greatest from the Uk you have to take into account what was going on at different times.  Late 50's-early 60's there were 5 riders starting from 30 yard back - Craven, Briggs, Moore, Knutsson and Fundin - the untouchables, the aliens, call them what you will, it was between them 5, but that competition was HOT, but only one from the UK..  They really were a cut above the rest.    Go into the 70's and the field was MUCH wider, Louis, Jessup, Betts, Simmo, Collins, Ashby, Kennet, Morton, Wilson, Wyer already been mentioned - throw in some fabulous foreigners and becoming a UK world champ became seriously more difficult due to the spread of talent.  Same with the 80's/early 90's.  Now, from the UK, Tai has has had no serious competition from a UK rider, and I got to say, a few years when the number of GP riders that could win a GP series has been depleted.  Not today though, 

This all makes determining who is the greatest Uk world champ ever very difficult.   I prefer to leave things at that - each era we have had something special, I just treasure that in my mind. We never going to get Craven, Collins, Lee, Woffinden on the same track with the same machines. Just treasure what we have had.

Only a minor point Ove, I think it it was 20 yards back. There were scratch riders (the majority), 10 yard men,  (McKinlay, How etc.) and the Famous 5 off 20 yards. Briggo complained, even though he got more per point for the handicapping, that it cost more in engine wear and repair than the extra money provided, quite apart from the effort and risk trying to pass the lesser riders. It was soon scrapped.

[OveFundinFan]

Thanks bill94d for setting me right. You know, as I was typing it I was thinking “was it 20 yards or 3O yards”, glad to be corrected. Thanks.

[Gavan]

I don’t agree I think that pretty much all of the field with the possible exception of Pawlicki and Cook can all win a Gp on a given night.

Go back a to the beginning of the decade and I would say it was only 6 or 7 that could be classed as a likely winner such really was the dominance of Rickardsso Crump

[BWitcher]

9 hours ago, ColinMills said:

spot on...what a rich vein of riders England had all at the same time...louis, Jessup, betts, simmo, Collins, ashby, kennet, Morton, Wilson, wyer.....and we saw these riders every week, no wonder it thrived

All good riders but also made to look better by the format at the time. Put them in today's format and suddenly they're classed as decent rather than very good. It's why some of them could consistently get to World Finals and contend, whilst others never really did (not just these but other 'heat leaders' from that era, not just British).

[Sidney the robin]

1 hour ago, OveFundinFan said:

When trying to determine who is the greatest from the Uk you have to take into account what was going on at different times.  Late 50's-early 60's there were 5 riders starting from 30 yard back - Craven, Briggs, Moore, Knutsson and Fundin - the untouchables, the aliens, call them what you will, it was between them 5, but that competition was HOT, but only one from the UK..  They really were a cut above the rest.    Go into the 70's and the field was MUCH wider, Louis, Jessup, Betts, Simmo, Collins, Ashby, Kennet, Morton, Wilson, Wyer already been mentioned - throw in some fabulous foreigners and becoming a UK world champ became seriously more difficult due to the spread of talent.  Same with the 80's/early 90's.  Now, from the UK, Tai has has had no serious competition from a UK rider, and I got to say, a few years when the number of GP riders that could win a GP series has been depleted.  Not today though, 

This all makes determining who is the greatest Uk world champ ever very difficult.   I prefer to leave things at that - each era we have had something special, I just treasure that in my mind. We never going to get Craven, Collins, Lee, Woffinden on the same track with the same machines. Just treasure what we have had.

Think you are spot on OVE i bet you feel privalaged that you have seen so many great riders in your lifetime!!!!.Every rider can only beat what is put in front of him also now the bikes have changed one hell of alot.My few regrets that i have in speedway are that i never saw Craven/ Knutsson ride and that i never saw Fundin and Briggs at there peak.

[Sidney the robin]

6 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

All good riders but also made to look better by the format at the time. Put them in today's format and suddenly they're classed as decent rather than very good. It's why some of them could consistently get to World Finals and contend, whilst others never really did (not just these but other 'heat leaders' from that era, not just British).

I would say though Witcher forget averages formats (ect)  those riders rode in a era that was a far higher standard that Tai has ever rode in over here.As Ove pointed out  Tai has never really been pushed in the Uk what i would say is Tai has rode in a mega tough Polish league for years My point is the old British league  was of a high standard  everyweek tough different tracks different challenges  at one time it was the BEST.

[BWitcher]

27 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would say though Witcher forget averages formats (ect)  those riders rode in a era that was a far higher standard that Tai has ever rode in over here.As Ove pointed out  Tai has never really been pushed in the Uk what i would say is Tai has rode in a mega tough Polish league for years My point is the old British league  was of a high standard  everyweek tough different tracks different challenges  at one time it was the BEST.

Over 'here' is irrelevant

Tai rides in Sweden and Poland. Both of which are a far higher standard than any of those riders rode in.

You cannot 'forget' averages and formats as they are everything. The bigger the league the more 'star' riders there are. The ability of the rider in question doesn't change. That's before we get onto the fact there were no races such as Heat 13 and 15 where the top 2 raced each other and beat each other thus lowering their averages and making them seem a lot more beatable.

Take the riders in the 70's, place them in the leagues and formats of today and you wouldn't rate 90% of them anywhere near as highly. 

 

[chunky]

33 minutes ago, Sidney the robin said:

I would say though Witcher forget averages formats (ect)  those riders rode in a era that was a far higher standard that Tai has ever rode in over here.

Of course, we know that the BL has been watered down, but when you try to judge someone's ability, can we actually PROVE the standard was higher back then? We all like to think so, but that is based on what?

Just because the "Big Five" stood out against the rest doesn't mean that the rest were poor. Just because riders like Betts and Ashby struggled to get past the British final on a consistent basis doesn't actually mean it was "stronger". You can only compare riders against the others they actually rode against. Could it be that the standard modern speedway is actually BETTER than it has ever been? It certainly seems a more level playing field, but that doesn't mean that riders aren't as good these days.

I know many will hate me for this, but could Woffinden, Zmarzlik, Janowski, Lindgren, Doyle etc be true equivalents of Briggs, Moore, Craven, Fundin, Knutson etc? Could they actually be better? Nobody can answer that with any certainty, however much you think you can. All we know is that there were more riders back then, but you simply cannot say who were better.

Steve

[BWitcher]

8 minutes ago, chunky said:

Of course, we know that the BL has been watered down, but when you try to judge someone's ability, can we actually PROVE the standard was higher back then? We all like to think so, but that is based on what?

Just because the "Big Five" stood out against the rest doesn't mean that the rest were poor. Just because riders like Betts and Ashby struggled to get past the British final on a consistent basis doesn't actually mean it was "stronger". You can only compare riders against the others they actually rode against. Could it be that the standard modern speedway is actually BETTER than it has ever been? It certainly seems a more level playing field, but that doesn't mean that riders aren't as good these days.

I know many will hate me for this, but could Woffinden, Zmarzlik, Janowski, Lindgren, Doyle etc be true equivalents of Briggs, Moore, Craven, Fundin, Knutson etc? Could they actually be better? Nobody can answer that with any certainty, however much you think you can. All we know is that there were more riders back then, but you simply cannot say who were better.

Steve

Spot on Chunky.

Sidney likes to say 'forget averages'. It's a ridiculous statement. Your entire perception of how good a rider is quite simply is based upon how often you see him win. In a big league, with a format where the big guns don't race that often in a meeting and lower end of sides that weren't all that great it wasn't often you saw many, many riders get beat. 

A different race format and a few less teams in the division and suddenly those 2nd and 3rd heat leaders (and some of the no 1's) start getting beat on a much more regular basis, running regular last places towards end of meetings and their air of invincibility is gone and your whole perception of how 'good' they are changes.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher

[OveFundinFan]

25 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Over 'here' is irrelevant

Tai rides in Sweden and Poland. Both of which are a far higher standard than any of those riders rode in.

You cannot 'forget' averages and formats as they are everything. The bigger the league the more 'star' riders there are. The ability of the rider in question doesn't change. That's before we get onto the fact there were no races such as Heat 13 and 15 where the top 2 raced each other and beat each other thus lowering their averages and making them seem a lot more beatable.

Take the riders in the 70's, place them in the leagues and formats of today and you wouldn't rate 90% of them anywhere near as highly. 

 

But that is only your opinion, and you cant prove what you say is right (or wrong).  That's why I am just cherishing what I have seen through the years, cant really say who is the best ever GB champion, just as I cant say who is the best ever in the world. We all may have an opinion, fine, but none of us can compare across generations of speedway racing.

If someone says Woffy is best GB rider ever, then that's fine. I may say Peter Collins is, but not everyone will agree. Fine. I would imagine there are not many on BSF, or anywhere, who have clear memories of, say, the early fifties champions, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Jack Biggs etc so very difficult to bring anyone of that generation (and before) into the equation.  Who is the best will always be in our minds, and not reality.

[BWitcher]

4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

But that is only your opinion, and you cant prove what you say is right (or wrong).  That's why I am just cherishing what I have seen through the years, cant really say who is the best ever GB champion, just as I cant say who is the best ever in the world. We all may have an opinion, fine, but none of us can compare across generations of speedway racing.

If someone says Woffy is best GB rider ever, then that's fine. I may say Peter Collins is, but not everyone will agree. Fine. I would imagine there are not many on BSF, or anywhere, who have clear memories of, say, the early fifties champions, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Jack Biggs etc so very difficult to bring anyone of that generation (and before) into the equation.  Who is the best will always be in our minds, and not reality.

It isn't an opinion. It is absolute fact.

The 30th best rider in the 70's would be averaging 8.5+

The 30th best rider in Poland for example is around 6.5.

Hence the bigger the league, the more 'stars' it appears to have. That is indisputable.

Edited September 25, 2018 by BWitcher