Slovenian GP Krsko Saturday September 8th

[AFCB Wildcat]

7 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

The start marshal has taken a bit of flack for being so annoying as "being there" and doing his job - bringing riders up to the tapes.  Generally speaking, riders were taking no notice of him (seen it in domestic matches too), but if Heat 16 the start marshal had been taken notice of then perhaps no one would have been excluded.  Yes, I hope riders have taken it in what happened on Saturday at Krsko, and learned from it. Too much messing.

Exactly that. The start marshall was being blatantly ignored all night and the referee eventually called time on it. Let's hope it's lesson learned and rules are applied consistently.

[Gavan]

4 hours ago, Grand Central said:

To play devil's advocate.

According to the rules the critical factor for exclusion is just what the position is at the moment the two minutes expires. Not before , not after. They are to be excluded if they are not ready to race or under the control of the starting marshal at that moment only.

We all know that as the clock counted down from 30 seconds all four were fannying around gardening. But as the clock ticks to 0:00 for that one or two seconds ONLY Tai is about one length back from the tapes and the other three are at the tapes (but still fidgeting).

One second later Tai moved forward to join the others. But at second-zero he was the one that wasn't and that gave the ref the chance to pounce.

I have a picture of the referee poised with his hand hovering over all four coloured buttons. Whoever was 'out of position' at the single moment of 0:00 was going to 'get it' and it was Tai just being a yard of two back from the tapes that gave him that opportunity.

Whether he was being even handed in his approach of whether he was 'itching' to put Tai out is moot.

But at second-zero Tai, inadvertently, have him the option. And he took it.

 

There is no devils advocate to play!

The facts are these:

Tai Woffinden wasnt ready to race

Magic Janowski wasnt ready to race

Bartosz Zmarzlik wasnt ready to race

Greg Hancock.............was pretty much ready.

Its irrelevant wether Tai was up at tapes......5 metres back.......10 metres back..............in the pits!

3 riders should have been excluded (minimum)

If you want to play devils advocate then the fact is Tai was probably the most ready to race of all of them, he had done his 'gardening and pulled back a bit to let Janowski do his and cool his clutch.

What you are saying is that if Tai was at the tapes clutch cooling that would be ok?

The fact is everyone can see why Tai was excluded...................the issue is he wasnt the only one ..................and i wish people would stop using the phrase 'riders were at the tapes'...............100% irrelevent

[Grand Central]

14 minutes ago, Gavan said:

There is no devils advocate to play!

The facts are these:

Tai Woffinden wasnt ready to race

Magic Janowski wasnt ready to race

Bartosz Zmarzlik wasnt ready to race

Greg Hancock.............was pretty much ready.

Its irrelevant wether Tai was up at tapes......5 metres back.......10 metres back..............in the pits!

3 riders should have been excluded (minimum)

If you want to play devils advocate then the fact is Tai was probably the most ready to race of all of them, he had done his 'gardening and pulled back a bit to let Janowski do his and cool his clutch.

What you are saying is that if Tai was at the tapes clutch cooling that would be ok?

The fact is everyone can see why Tai was excluded...................the issue is he wasnt the only one ..................and i wish people would stop using the phrase 'riders were at the tapes'...............100% irrelevent

Except ... the referee excluded him. And him alone. So something did actually matter to the only person that mattered.
I was trying to reason out just what that was from the evidence available.

We can rant and rave but the exclusion will stand.

Even if you think the reason the referee used was wrong.
(as I do too!)

But If I wanted to be World Champion I would at least 'bear that in mind'.
Just in case it happened again.

Having an idiot in the box has been quite a feature of this year's series.
So it might quite easily.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[AFCB Wildcat]

1 hour ago, Gavan said:

 

The fact is everyone can see why Tai was excluded...................the issue is he wasnt the only one ..................and i wish people would stop using the phrase 'riders were at the tapes'...............100% irrelevent

Technically you are probably correct but the fact is the start marshall called him to the tapes twice while he was cooling his clutch and twice Tai ignored him and became the only rider not at tapes when the clock hit zero. If he had moved to the line when called he would not have been excluded even if none of them were to the letter of the law ready to race so I would hardly say it's irrelevant.

[New Science]

Back from a weekend in Slovenia  ,  Firstly Ljubulana and Slovenia as a whole are beautiful , the run out to Krsko on the train is nothing but mountains, trees, lakes and rivers. Paid up for decent seats in the main stand, the view was great but the stand had absolutely no facilities, if you needed the toilets or a bite to eat or a beer you had to leave the stadium, then join the queue to get re admitted . As for the GP it wasn't great was it, it was probably a bit better if you were there. I hear the claims to drop this venue but realistically where can it go. With 6 of the 10 GP's in Poland, Sweden and GP we have to find at least 4 venues to hold GP speedway that are financially viable, if not Krsko then where ? Was it any worse than Prague most years, that's been on the calendar for 20 years. I thought the crowd was good particularly with Zagar missing. As for the exclusion, I was sitting 10 yards behind the tapes and I couldn't fathom what was going on, it seemed to me with the naked eye that all 4 were not ready to race. As it turned out don't think too much damage was done to Woffinden's title hopes, realistically I think Zmarslik needed a minimum podium finish to give himself a fighting chance, would still back Tai to have the one good night he needs to secure the title. 

[Terry]

Woffy will be alright. He's got the experience to see the job through. I'm a massive fan of Zmarzlik and I'm sure he'll be world champion, but not this year.

[New Yorker]

10 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

While I do agree he shouldn’t of been singled out I just hope the one good thing to come out of this is that this has set the rule now and that the riders learn that the 2mins is 2 mins and ready or not your out, not like it is now where it’s 2mins +a bit of fiddling time, it’s time strict rules were enforced, come back Frank Ebdon

Hi Dean, I mentioned in an earlier post that when young riders are starting out it is probably drilled into them to be at the tape ready to race at the two minute clock. Am I wrong? I have no experience in an up close setting but know that you would have the answer. As some said in an earlier post....why give the referee the chance to exclude you. Maybe the start Marshall was being a jerk but if he calls you to the tape there's really no reason not to obey him.  It's a little foolish how riders will tinker and tweet and tune their bikes and then not pay attention to the basics which can and did cost them. I've run a business since 1971 and believe me it's the small details that come back and bite you OR make you successful. 

[PHILIPRISING]

THERE have been hundreds if not thousands of SGP races when all four riders are ready when the two minutes expires. It is the norm. Saturday's fiasco was very rare and, personally, think it was because all four were messing around when the clock ran out. But the referee could have started the race as the quartet were ready, albeit after the two minutes.

The two minutes allowance can be frustrating at certain tracks. Malilla, for example, where it takes the riders less than 15 seconds to get from the point gate to the tapes. But inevitably they will still use up the full allowance, gardening, etc for over 90 seconds. It seems an eternity. At other tracks, where riders have to go much further, it is less apparent. 

I do know that different procedures are being looked at but riders being excluded under the two minute rule when they are within the starting area is very, very rare. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by PHILIPRISING

[Odds On]

all the ref had to do was put the greenlights on, it would of sent a clear message to every single rider in the meeting, to single out an individual in the way he did was poor, unfair and even unprofessional.

[Grand Central]

32 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

THERE have been hundreds if not thousands of SGP races when all four riders are ready when the two minutes expires. It is the norm. Saturday's fiasco was very rare and, personally, think it was because all four were messing around that the clock ran out. But the referee could have started the race as the quartet were ready, albeit after the two minutes.

The two minutes allowance can be frustrating at certain tracks. Malilla, for example, where it takes the riders less than 15 seconds to get from the point gate to the tapes. But inevitably they will still use up the full allowance, gardening, etc for over 90 seconds. It seems an eternity. At other tracks, where riders have to go much further, it is less apparent. 

I do know that different procedures are being looked at but riders being excluded under the two minute rule when they are within the starting area is very, very rare. 

Frankly we all know that it is rare and that the riders are usually all ready at the tapes whe the two minutes expires.
That is what is supposed to happen.

And it works so well so much of the time it would be ridiculous for anyone to try and come up with 'different procedures' when this procredure works very well indeed in thousands of races, as you say.

Any rider in Heat 16 who WAS at the start and ready to race at 0:00 was NEVER going to be excluded.
That is the only lesson they should ALL learn.
Especially if they have designs on being World Champion.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

9 hours ago, New Yorker said:

Hi Dean, I mentioned in an earlier post that when young riders are starting out it is probably drilled into them to be at the tape ready to race at the two minute clock. Am I wrong? I have no experience in an up close setting but know that you would have the answer. As some said in an earlier post....why give the referee the chance to exclude you. Maybe the start Marshall was being a jerk but if he calls you to the tape there's really no reason not to obey him.  It's a little foolish how riders will tinker and tweet and tune their bikes and then not pay attention to the basics which can and did cost them. I've run a business since 1971 and believe me it's the small details that come back and bite you OR make you successful. 

In my opinion this is all about discipline within the sport or really the lack of it, give the riders an inch they will take a mile, so many times now you see riders being pulled closer to the tapes then move away as soon as the start marshal moves, they are like little children who have to have the last say, there is no need to do 2 mins of gardening, watching the leszno v Wroclaw match on Sunday janowski got a tax sub ride and was struggling to make the 2 mins, he got to the tapes with about 10 seconds to go, no gardening nothing just straight there and green light and he makes his best start all night, woffinden can claim rightly he was unfairly excluded but he must ask himself why was he back from the tapes at the end of the 2 mins,?why was he not ready at the tapes with 30 seconds to go ? And then no matter if the ref was unfair or biased or whatever woffinden would of been in the race it’s that simple 

Edited September 12, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[GiveusaB]

2 hours ago, Odds On said:

all the ref had to do was put the greenlights on, it would of sent a clear message to every single rider in the meeting, to single out an individual in the way he did was poor, unfair and even unprofessional.

Absolutely spot on !

Forget all this nonsense debate about the if's /but's, why's/wherefore's etc etc etc.....

The Green lights should have been put on !

As soon as the 2 mins clock has run down, the green lights should go on and away we go!

The referee was still a cheat....imo!

[PHILIPRISING]

10 minutes ago, GiveusaB said:

Absolutely spot on !

Forget all this nonsense debate about the if's /but's, why's/wherefore's etc etc etc.....

The Green lights should have been put on !

As soon as the 2 mins clock has run down, the green lights should go on and away we go!

The referee was still a cheat....imo!

GREEN lights cannot go on until the start marshal has moved away

 

[GiveusaB]

11 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

GREEN lights cannot go on until the start marshal has moved away

 

May be flashing green lights to start with.....give riders a few seconds to respond and then take action ?

Something needs to be in 'black/white' with no scope for discretion of the referee !

Then I also think that a rider should be allowed to start off a handicap as in league racing....not many fans want to see a reserve rider take anybody's place?

We pay good money and I expect to see the best!

[New Yorker]

As much as we don't like it, in any event there are voices of authority. In speedway we have the referee who rotate here and there, the race director in Phil Morris (who i think does a great job), and the start Marshall who along with the referee is in CHARGE of the starts. Even though the clock had run down if Tai had moved towards the tape AS SOON AS the start Marshall motioned him forward IMO he would not have been excluded. 

[Fromafar]

2 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

GREEN lights cannot go on until the start marshal has moved away

 

In Gb at tracks that do not have clocks, the Ref often "flashes" the green light to tell the riders to move forward when they are not obeying the start Marshall ,which is quite a lot .But with a clock to look at the riders should not leave it to the last few seconds,it is noticeable when they are late to the gate after a problem they move right in and ready to go sharpish.

[PHILIPRISING]

1 hour ago, Fromafar said:

In Gb at tracks that do not have clocks, the Ref often "flashes" the green light to tell the riders to move forward when they are not obeying the start Marshall ,which is quite a lot .But with a clock to look at the riders should not leave it to the last few seconds,it is noticeable when they are late to the gate after a problem they move right in and ready to go sharpish.

LET'S not over react here. It hasn't happened before probably won't again.

[IainB]

4 hours ago, GiveusaB said:

May be flashing green lights to start with.....give riders a few seconds to respond and then take action ?

Or maybe a clock counting down to zero... Oh, hang on a minute!

[Fromafar]

1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

LET'S not over react here. It hasn't happened before probably won't again.

You would like to think so!.Riders can only blame themselves IMO.

[IainB]

1 hour ago, PHILIPRISING said:

LET'S not over react here. It hasn't happened before probably won't again.

Didn't Trick get done when the clocks were first introduced, I'll grant you it's not happened since then though