Slovenian GP Krsko Saturday September 8th

[Fromafar]

6 hours ago, Orbiter said:

Tbh Phil Morris remained professional throughout that interview he kept what he thought to one side, had he gone the other way it would of been unprofessional. 

Agree ,Morris told it how it was in his interview ,it was nothing to do with him regarding refs decision,don't see how he can make the ref change his decision.Very harsh decision on Tai but handle his interview very professionally ,fair play too him.

[OveFundinFan]

1 hour ago, AFCB Wildcat said:

Having watched the incident several times now I think that what went against Tai was the fact the start marshall called him forward twice and he completely ignored him both times. The other 3 at least moved forward when beckoned although admittedly were still messing around when he walked away. Zmarzlik was still rolling towards the line as the clock hit zero so clearly not ready to race but I think Tai was the worst offender for ignoring the start Marshall's instructions however bad he was which is why he was made an example of.

At the end of the day it was in his own hands and with a Polish ref he shouldn't have given him the opportunity to exclude him with so much at stake.

Sounds reasonable.

[OveFundinFan]

4 hours ago, Sidney the robin said:

You are right  Ove of course  you don't need to SLAG  the guy  off,and by the way he is only a referee he should be made accountable not be aloud to just move on to his next meeting.Like anybody in a workplace if you make a mistake you have to hold your hands up he walks away scott free and says nothing.If Tai does lose the title because of that decision is that right? it was such a strange decision if you exclude Tai the rest of the riders in that race would have to go as well. Another  point worth making as well would a John Berry or a Eric Boocock not of made there views known i think so.

Of course a ref should be accountable, but it is probably not race directors job to do that. I would imagine someone has to put a report in to somewhere/someone and appropriate action be taken (even if its no action). Phil Morris handled the question put to him in a correct manner - keep out of it in front of cameras/press.  Maybe a John Berry or Eric Boocock would have said something, probably from the position of a layman just like you or I, so no problem.   Like you, I would like to see what action would be taken against this ref (and the Cardiff ref) but very probable we will never get to know what, if any, action will be taken.  Like I said before, we may only know something has been done if we don't see either of them as GP referees for the next few years.   Hopefully that incident on Saturday will get some sort of clarification re starting procedures.

[racers and royals]

4 minutes ago, OveFundinFan said:

Of course a ref should be accountable, but it is probably not race directors job to do that. I would imagine someone has to put a report in to somewhere/someone and appropriate action be taken (even if its no action). Phil Morris handled the question put to him in a correct manner - keep out of it in front of cameras/press.  Maybe a John Berry or Eric Boocock would have said something, probably from the position of a layman just like you or I, so no problem.   Like you, I would like to see what action would be taken against this ref (and the Cardiff ref) but very probable we will never get to know what, if any, action will be taken.  Like I said before, we may only know something has been done if we don't see either of them as GP referees for the next few years.   Hopefully that incident on Saturday will get some sort of clarification re starting procedures.

The highest ranking FIM offical at any GP is i believe the Jury President-who i think is in overall charge of the meeting. Wolfgang Glas was scheduled to be JP in Krsko. 

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

on a personal level i hope woffinden loses overall to zmarzlik but I don't want Saturdays events to be the reason, which I think the woffinden fans will say till the cows come home, I feel he was singled out unfairly but for me in the Swedish round he should of been excluded for crossing the white line, so he has had some luck too 

[Mark]

1 hour ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

on a personal level i hope woffinden loses overall to zmarzlik but I don't want Saturdays events to be the reason, which I think the woffinden fans will say till the cows come home, I feel he was singled out unfairly but for me in the Swedish round he should of been excluded for crossing the white line, so he has had some luck too 

Why would you want the Brit to get beaten.        As for the white line exclusion, there were a few riders who should have gone but the shape of the corner was poor because of the rain delay.  Rush job.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

29 minutes ago, Mark said:

Why would you want the Brit to get beaten.        As for the white line exclusion, there were a few riders who should have gone but the shape of the corner was poor because of the rain delay.  Rush job.

I just don’t like woffinden but I don’t want to get into An anti woffinden thing, it’s just a personal choice, I also believe the red and the FIM were slack on that day regarding the white line, it should of been enforced no matter what the conditions 

Edited September 10, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Mark]

1 minute ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

I just don’t like woffinden but I don’t want to get into An anti woffinden thing, it’s just a personal choice 

It's strange that people don't like Woffinden but none of us forum 'warriors' have met him.  Maybe you have met him as you were a rider but the majority only see him at work in a very competitive enviroment when points mean money.  Whatever we see when he is working probably isn't the real him.   I appreciate what he can do on a bike, what he does riding for GB and leave it there.  Each to there own.  Personal choice respected.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

5 minutes ago, Mark said:

It's strange that people don't like Woffinden but none of us forum 'warriors' have met him.  Maybe you have met him as you were a rider but the majority only see him at work in a very competitive enviroment when points mean money.  Whatever we see when he is working probably isn't the real him.   I appreciate what he can do on a bike, what he does riding for GB and leave it there.  Each to there own.  Personal choice respected.

I have raced against him but that has no bearing on my dislike of him,he is very talented on a bike and I do respect his riding,there are some other things I could say but as I said I’m not getting into an anti woffinden thing ,if people like him that’s great, i just don’t 

Edited September 10, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Mark]

1 minute ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

I have raced against him but that has no bearing on my dislike of him,there are some other things I could say but as I said I’m not getting into an anti woffinden thing ,if people like him that’s great, i just don’t 

As said above.  Personal choice respected.

[chunky]

2 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

for me in the Swedish round he should of been excluded for crossing the white line, so he has had some luck too 

Had others been excluded, and he hadn't, I would say you are 100% correct. However, with the referee seemingly making allowances (it isn't exactly normal to move the white line from its normal position into the middle of the racing line) for EVERYONE, I don't think any rider could have been classed as "lucky". Had Tai been excluded, but others not, that wouldn't have been fair, would it?

As I said in an earlier post, it is when the rules are applied in an inconsistent manner that it becomes a problem.

In reference to other posts here, if Tai was to lose the title because of that, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a poor refereeing decision affected the outcome of a World Championship!

In 1993, Ermolenko was allowed into the rerun despite not being under power at the time of the stoppage.

In 2000, Rickardsson was excluded after Loram (unintentionally, I will add) sent him into the fence.

Or how about the 1979 (I think) World Pairs Final when Jancarz clearly finished second, but the ref awarded a 5-1 to Denmark.

Steve

[New Yorker]

If it's been addressed I didn't see it but can anyone tell me where the rider is supposed be when the two minute clock hits zero.....according to the rule book. From what I've seen if a rider is late coming out of the pits and he isn't at the tape when the two minutes expires he's gone. Tai was at the tape then backed up and if you watch the replay he still had his bike tipped cooling his clutch and didn't even have it upright when when the clock said zero. Sure it was a harsh penalty but I have a feeling that one thing that's drummed into a young rider's head is to be at the tape before the two minute clock runs out. On our Interstate highway system here in the states they give you at least 10 miles per hour over the speed limit. BUT if a cop stops you and gives you a ticket for eight MPH over are you going to tell him that you always give me 10 over?

[chunky]

4 hours ago, New Yorker said:

If it's been addressed I didn't see it but can anyone tell me where the rider is supposed be when the two minute clock hits zero.....according to the rule book.

It has been addressed several times actually. It is not just a case of "where" a rider is supposed to be; the rider must be "at the tapes and ready to race".

That means not gardening, not adjusting your goggles, not cooling your clutch etc. If you are doing any of those, you are not "ready to race". Again, the problem here is not that Tai was excluded, as we know he was not ready to race. What everybody is unhappy about is that none of the other riders were "at the tapes and ready to race" either!

If you have a rule like that, it SHOULD be applied to all those who break the rule, not just one rider who was seemingly handpicked by the referee as an example. If one rider moves at the tapes, and he is followed by another, BOTH receive a warning. In this case, ALL FOUR should have been out...

Steve

[GiveusaB]

Its riders 'fannying' around after a false start that need disciplining....not riders on the track building up the crowd's anticipation ???

The Polish referee is a 'CHEAT' and he should be banned!

[IainB]

14 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

on a personal level i hope woffinden loses overall to zmarzlik but I don't want Saturdays events to be the reason, which I think the woffinden fans will say till the cows come home, I feel he was singled out unfairly but for me in the Swedish round he should of been excluded for crossing the white line, so he has had some luck too 

I don't know that you can point to one single incident over a whole GP season, that's the whole point of a GP series, the old one day World Final yes, but not the GP... You could point to him forgetting to turn his fuel on at Cardiff or not getting exqualified for both wheels over the white line in Sweden. Over the course of a season these things equal themselves out and generally the best rider wins (unless you're Jason Doyle)

[Grand Central]

To play devil's advocate.

According to the rules the critical factor for exclusion is just what the position is at the moment the two minutes expires. Not before , not after. They are to be excluded if they are not ready to race or under the control of the starting marshal at that moment only.

We all know that as the clock counted down from 30 seconds all four were fannying around gardening. But as the clock ticks to 0:00 for that one or two seconds ONLY Tai is about one length back from the tapes and the other three are at the tapes (but still fidgeting).

One second later Tai moved forward to join the others. But at second-zero he was the one that wasn't and that gave the ref the chance to pounce.

I have a picture of the referee poised with his hand hovering over all four coloured buttons. Whoever was 'out of position' at the single moment of 0:00 was going to 'get it' and it was Tai just being a yard of two back from the tapes that gave him that opportunity.

Whether he was being even handed in his approach of whether he was 'itching' to put Tai out is moot.

But at second-zero Tai, inadvertently, have him the option. And he took it.

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[PHILIPRISING]

10 minutes ago, Grand Central said:

T

We all know that as the clock counted down from 30 seconds all four were fannying around gardening. But as the clock ticks to 0:00 for that one or two seconds ONLY Tai is about one length back from the tapes and the other three are at the tapes (but still fidgeting).

 

 

SO, not ready. 

[Grand Central]

48 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

SO, not ready. 

Quite right. I personally agree.

But there are many many reasons why I dont agree with a whole load of refereeing decisions.
They do seem a bunch of jobsworthy idiots so much of the time. At all levels and in many ways.
I am just trying to percieve the reasoning for this jobsworthy idiot in this case.

I don't go for curruption. I go for nerdish pedantry on the part of these type of people.
It usually explains their daftness in decisions as refereeing always seems to draw that sort of nensense out of otherwise quite sane and reasonable folk.

There was a distinction observable between the postion and therefore "readiness" of the rider in white and the other three at 0:00 specifically.

White is a length or so back at 0:00;  he was neither 'at the tapes' nor under the starting marshalls control.
Definitely NOT ready to everyone.

And just at that same moment of 0:00 the others happened to be 'at the tapes under the starting marshalls control'
Their readiness could be debatable.

But after the thirty seconds of gardening that was quite exhaustive by all four; whoever found themselves a length or so back from the tapes at that precise moment the two minutes expired was open to having his exclusion button pressed. And at that moment it was only true of white.

It just seems that the starts today with stoppages, warnings and exclusions are proving to be a a major issue at every level that is materially affecting the sporting spectacle at a time when we cannot afford it to happen at all..

And the current poor crop of referees nationally and internationally seem to be just the sort of prattish bunch to mess it up more rather than help sort it out.
This is an endemic problem.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Grand Central

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

While I do agree he shouldn’t of been singled out I just hope the one good thing to come out of this is that this has set the rule now and that the riders learn that the 2mins is 2 mins and ready or not your out, not like it is now where it’s 2mins +a bit of fiddling time, it’s time strict rules were enforced, come back Frank Ebdon

Edited September 11, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[OveFundinFan]

The start marshal has taken a bit of flack for being so annoying as "being there" and doing his job - bringing riders up to the tapes.  Generally speaking, riders were taking no notice of him (seen it in domestic matches too), but if Heat 16 the start marshal had been taken notice of then perhaps no one would have been excluded.  Yes, I hope riders have taken it in what happened on Saturday at Krsko, and learned from it. Too much messing.