Unsatisfactory starts

[E I Addio]

2 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

The 75mm rule needs to be enforced and that would tidy up 90% of the issue

As you say it is almost impossible to move and not hit the tapes from that distance

Invariably though most riders are significantly further back and even when called in by the marshall return to the withdrawn position once he moves attention to the next rider!

Of the meetings I see, which admittedly tends to be Lakeside these days the correct procedure is invariably followed. The rules require the start marshal to ensure the riders are correctly positioned be fore he hands over to the referee, who then has to put the green light on as soon as the start Marshall is clear, then release the tapes after a minimum delay of 1.5 seconds to allow riders to get their engines spinning. I practical terms that mean from the time the start Marshall hands over to the referee there is less than two seconds before the green light comes on which is not enough time for riders to start faffy about pulling bikes back and forth before concentrating on the green light.

Because of the nature of the sport and the heightened state of tension the riders are in at the start it is almost inevitable that once or twice a meeting the merest distraction will cause a twitchy clutch finger to move.

But there is another aspect to this that I have only noticed in the last few meetings. Richard Lawson for example is noted as a very good gater but recently I have noticed that he is almost always first up to the tapes allowing himself a full two minutes or more to do his “ gardening, which he is usually quite fussy about, and still allow a bit of time to start getting his head in gear for the race. The result is he more often than not gets either a fist bend lead or positions himself for a second bend cut back. A lot of his points come that way. On the other hand riders that are a bit late to the gate and then start messing around with clutches or goggles or just kicking a bit of dirt around , tend, I think, to be the ones jumping the start. Not always the case, but very often is.

[ouch]

Typical speedway replacing a minor irritation with a rule that is completely irritating. 

If I was a ref I’d release the tapes just as the roller had to stop before hitting the tapes. Also if a rider pulled back as we see some do, I’d get him on the phone after the race and tell him he’s out if he does it again. 

Whilst speedway is essentially a basic sport it shouldn’t be so basic that it can’t adopt technology to help solve this issue. 

[E I Addio]

1 hour ago, ouch said:

 

If I was a ref I’d release the tapes just as the roller had to stop before hitting the tapes. Also if a rider pulled back as we see some do, I’d get him on the phone after the race and tell him he’s out if he does it again. 

That is already the case . If a rider has had one warning to sit still Rule 15.16(b) applies : “ For a second offence by the same rider in the same heat a mandatory disqualification with no replacement permitted” i.e, the rider is out of the race, no replacement no going off 15 metres.

 

[Tabashir]

Not sure why, but the forums don't allow me to 'like' posts.

 

10 hours ago, MattK said:

Given speedway's spit and sawdust approach I can't see transponders, lasers or any other tech as the solution.

At the end of the day, two false starts in 23 heats seems like a reasonable outcome to me.

Two false starts and one false positive. Although I mentioned the GP, my main concern was league racing, since that is what really needs to attract (and retain) spectators. Also with the GPs, you tend to be taking in the atmosphere (or watching from the comfort and warmth of your armchair) so it's less of a drag. On a drizzling, cold evening sat waiting for multiple restarts is certainly more of a put-off, especially for newbies or casual supporters.

 

3 hours ago, ouch said:

Typical speedway replacing a minor irritation with a rule that is completely irritating.

Totally agree. Admittedly after many years they've got rid of the 'joker' rule in league now. I know it was called a tactical ride but everyone I explained it to likened it to a joker.

 

3 hours ago, ouch said:

Whilst speedway is essentially a basic sport it shouldn’t be so basic that it can’t adopt technology to help solve this issue. 

Agreed. It may be harder at the lower levels to afford transponders, beams and the like and I have no clue how much it would cost. However, maybe introducing at top level then cascading to  lower leagues if successful could help at least prevent the lower leagues losing money on an experiment.

 

11 hours ago, E I Addio said:

The rules already require the riders to be lined up 75 mm ( 3inches) from the tapes. You can't realistically get any closer than that without touching them.

Hard to tell from a distance, but definitely looks further than that to me. If they were really less than 3" away then it would be impossible to jump without touching the tapes, yet here we are.

 

11 hours ago, OveFundinFan said:

But keep them pit gates closed, that in itself would make a big difference.

Yup, would be far less irritating if they just came back round. No 2 mins for a restart.

[Humphrey Appleby]

19 hours ago, Tabashir said:

Agreed. It may be harder at the lower levels to afford transponders, beams and the like and I have no clue how much it would cost. However, maybe introducing at top level then cascading to  lower leagues if successful could help at least prevent the lower leagues losing money on an experiment.

Bike transponder are available for under 250 quid I think, and that's a rip off price given they actually cost about 5 quid to make. So probably could be a fair bit cheaper with a bulk deal, although they're increasingly leased nowadays. 

A complete timing system is probably under 10 grand - maybe even 7 grand for a basic system. 

Speedway is years behind even the most grass roots of motor sports. The cost of a timing system is not the issue for the lack of introduction.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Humphrey Appleby

[Tsunami]

4 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Bike transponder are available for under 250 quid I think, and that's a rip off price given they actually cost about 5 quid to make. So probably could be a fair bit cheaper with a bulk deal, although they're increasingly leased nowadays. 

A complete timing system is probably under 10 grand - maybe even 7 grand for a basic system. 

Speedway is years behind even the most grass roots of motor sports. The cost of a timing system is not the issue for the lack of introduction.

Bike transponders were going to be mandatory in about 2002 to allow a real meeting to be transmitted in graphic form to the Fair East to faciliate their lucrative betting industry. That was the only reason why a green helmet cover was brought in to allow punters to bet using their TV remotes. The green cover was to allow the idea to proceed with an expected new input of new big money. When it didn't happen, the green helmet cover was dropped as there was no real purpose for it then, much to the ire and amusement of the usual suspects. Perhaps the reason it was not pursued was the risk of tampering or damage/dislodging of the transponder, resulting in void races which was not acceptable to the broadcaster or betting firms involved. Perhaps the same could be said with such a clinical issue as starting which has to be right every time regardless.      

[Gunner85]

As far asI am concerned jump starts are far less frequent than last year.

i think the rules are not tough enough

they should be touch tapes... excluded no replacement

jump start... 15 m

I am sure team managers would then ram it home to not move at the tapes until they go up

[FAST GATER]

I am bemused at times why there is an obsession with equal starts  when there is so much else wrong with the sport , there have always been gaters( Mauger&co) and passers ( Mort&co) some riders just can't gate for toffee.I witnessed Hancock being wrongly penalised on Saturday and he lost at least 2or 3 points, if the tapes are not touched,the rider is within  75 mm  or broken them  let it go .Nine times out of ten times  the best rider will win and these percentages should not be manipulated to give  inferior riders a better chance  .

Cream will always float to the top by trying to  stop this  all  you will get is a ridiculous  amount of restarts !

Edited July 26, 2018 by FAST GATER

[brianbuck]

The entire starting procedure needs to be re-examined and the rules applied rigidly. If the referee stops a race, then the rider who caused him to stop it should be excluded. The rider concerned has either committed a foul or he hasn't - and if he is excluded there should be no reserve replacement or 15 metre handicap. These two alternatives only give an incentive to riders to try it on - and to team managers' to encourage them to try it on!                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a need too, to quantify exactly what "2 minutes" actually means. This should be two minutes to reach a rest line 2 metres behind the tapes and remaining there until directed by the starting marshal to move up to the start line  (ie no turning round and doing half a lap in the wrong direction.) Riders who mess about spinning their rear wheels or fiddling with their goggles, should be excluded for delaying the start.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yes, there would be chaos for a couple of weeks but once the message got through, then meetings would run at a much better rate.

[ragdoll64]

On 26 July 2018 at 8:55 AM, FAST GATER said:

I am bemused at times why there is an obsession with equal starts  when there is so much else wrong with the sport , there have always been gaters( Mauger&co) and passers ( Mort&co) some riders just can't gate for toffee.I witnessed Hancock being wrongly penalised on Saturday and he lost at least 2or 3 points, if the tapes are not touched,the rider is within  75 mm  or broken them  let it go .Nine times out of ten times  the best rider will win and these percentages should not be manipulated to give  inferior riders a better chance  .

Cream will always float to the top by trying to  stop this  all  you will get is a ridiculous  amount of restarts !

Totally agree.....why does it matter about movement at the start?....why does it matter about getting a flier?.....so long as you don't touch the tapes.  The starts would be less predictable and therefore the racing more exiting. These silly starting rules are destroying good speedway. 

[FAST GATER]

10 hours ago, ragdoll64 said:

Totally agree.....why does it matter about movement at the start?....why does it matter about getting a flier?.....so long as you don't touch the tapes.  The starts would be less predictable and therefore the racing more exiting. These silly starting rules are destroying good speedway. 

Most of the starting  rules are there to try and even things out and give  riders with inferior starting skills  a better chance  Chris Harris would almost never out gate Hancock   ,one is a gater the other is a passer and always will be .I think it is unfair for the likes of Hancock to have the Ref and Harris to compete against ,the last thing we need is robotic starts ,nothing better than seeing a rider cut back and take the lead through his own skill rather than upteen restarts or warnings to riders . 

Edited August 1, 2018 by FAST GATER

[waytogo28]

On 7/24/2018 at 8:28 PM, Tabashir said:

Yup, would be far less irritating if they just came back round. No 2 mins for a restart.

Why it is not a rule I cannot understand.

[Fromafar]

Think the ref should issue warning for riders that move back from tapes after the start Marshall moves the forward into position ,it happens frequently while the ref turn away to deal with the other riders,there should be procedure for lining them up bring them forward in gate order 1-4 and if they move back warn then for the rest of the meeting.If no rider touches the tapes do not stop the race.While the ref at Cardiff was shocking he did admit his mistake when he look at video replay,most meetings  don't have that option and the split second reaction often gets penalised for a perfect start.we had all witnessed perfectly good starts being brought too often.

[coventry1963]

Would it save a lot of hassle with broken tapes etc if riders were not allowed to touch the tapes at any time, including before coming under orders to avoid the number of times riders push through the tapes to prepare the surface beyond the line leading to broken tapes and delays? If it led to exclusion this element of potential delay could easily be stopped. That, plus immediate use of the two minute clock after an unsatisfactory start would stop most of the unnecessary delays.

[Daniel Smith]

I know some rider's and fan's laughed at it but 2nd start line I thought was a great inclusion. With the tires on that line it was so much easier for the start marshall to line rider's up and for the referee to spot the rider rolling forward or back. I don't get why this has been removed this year.

[Humphrey Appleby]

On 8/2/2018 at 12:00 AM, coventry1963 said:

Would it save a lot of hassle with broken tapes etc if riders were not allowed to touch the tapes at any time, including before coming under orders to avoid the number of times riders push through the tapes to prepare the surface beyond the line leading to broken tapes and delays? If it led to exclusion this element of potential delay could easily be stopped. That, plus immediate use of the two minute clock after an unsatisfactory start would stop most of the unnecessary delays.

It would save a lot of hassle if you actually didn't have the tapes any more. It's hardly beyond the bounds of technology to use a laser or transponders to detect whether riders have moved too early. 

And also no problems with the tapes going up unevenly either. Just go on the green light being turned off. 

[brianbuck]

Can see no point in issuing "warnings" for any reason. These serve only as an encouragement to riders to "try it on." A rider has either committed a foul or he hasn't - so if he has then he should be excluded with no reserve replacement and no handicap. Rigid application of the rules is the only way to ram this home.

[Ghostwalker]

On 8/1/2018 at 6:46 AM, FAST GATER said:

Most of the starting  rules are there to try and even things out and give  riders with inferior starting skills  a better chance 

It's the complete opposite. A good gater will benefit from stricter rules since he will do a good start anyway. Roll-starters will not benefit
from stricter rules because the will be called back if they roll. I don't understand why some don't understand how standing starts work
compared to rolling starts. Name any sport that currently uses a standing start that allows chance starts?
Not F1, not MotoGp, not WRC, not WRX, not swimming, no athletics. The start is about reaction on a start signal not about chancing.
I agree that inconsistency is a problem but like H.A. says above it can be solved by transponders. I personally would use them
together with the tapes not instead of.

[Tabashir]

On 8/3/2018 at 1:36 PM, Ghostwalker said:

It's the complete opposite. A good gater will benefit from stricter rules since he will do a good start anyway. Roll-starters will not benefit
from stricter rules because the will be called back if they roll. 

I'm not sure that's what @fastgater meant. He was talking about riders that are not good at gating so usually have to pass in the race, aka 'racers', Bomber being a notable example. I don't think he was talking about riders that are known for 'roll starts'. It would actually be likely to give 'racers' an advantage since their lack of gating skills would be more or less negated.

[FAST GATER]

22 hours ago, Tabashir said:

I'm not sure that's what @fastgater meant. He was talking about riders that are not good at gating so usually have to pass in the race, aka 'racers', Bomber being a notable example. I don't think he was talking about riders that are known for 'roll starts'. It would actually be likely to give 'racers' an advantage since their lack of gating skills would be more or less negated.

Spot on that is exactly what i meant !