Unsatisfactory starts

[Tabashir]

Sorry if this has been asked before, I did search the forums but couldn't see anything...

We have a rule that if you touch the tapes, you are excluded. This is pretty much black and white. If it was just this rule, you could attempt to jump the start, but if you got it wrong, you'd be excluded. Simple.

However, we also have the 'unsatisfactory start' rule where riders can be judged to have moved before the tapes even if they didn't touch them. Way less black and white and more complicated.

It's very rare to go a meeting without a few restarts even if nobody has actually touched the tapes. This, together with the pit gates opening and more messing about before the restart draws things out further. As a fan on the terraces waiting to see racing, it certainly doesn't add anything to the meeting. We now have the further addition of a warning system in the GPs and from the commentary, it appears the FIM have a real bee in their bonnet about people jumping the start. My memory could be playing tricks on me but I'm sure back in the 80s I remember only seeing restarts on an actual tape touching offence.

Last night at Cardiff just took the biscuit with the ref stopping the race then admitting there was no problem with the start.

I realise this is FIM diktat but I guess I just don't understand why we need this second rule. I realise it is also used to allow all-four-back aka bunching, but for an issue before the tapes have gone up, what is the value?

 

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Because moving/rolling is cheating to gain an unfair advantage

[OveFundinFan]

I agree with the 2 rules you mention. 1) Touch the tapes and your out and 2) move and the race is stopped and you get a warning for the meeting. 

I do have a problem with 1) where the rider in blue or white see the rider in red or yellow move and blue and white move too. If B or W touches the tapes it is they that get excluded. This could lead to riders in R or Y deliberately moving t get their opponent excluded. Needs a little bit more rule I think.

What may reduce the amount of stoppages is if the control of the tape release is took out of the hands of a human and given to a computer. For one, refs in at least the GP's hold the tapes much too long, so if a computer was set with a reasonable max time, but programmed to be random release time up to that max that would be good I think.

As for pit gates opening after a false start - simple solution - keep the pit gates shut, riders straight back to the tapes, didn't happen ages ago nor should it happen now. 

[SharpenRake]

2 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Because moving/rolling is cheating to gain an unfair advantage

It is only 'cheating' because there is a rule. Take away the rule and it wouldnt be cheating. Over the years the sport has brought in various rules to try and make things as equal or fair as possible but the one thing they haven't done is try and equalise the bikes. How is it fair to have Jason Doyle on top notch highly sponsored equipment sitting next to Jack Smith who is just starting out on hopefully a long career. Wouldn't it be good for the sport if Jack made the start and Jason had to overtake him. Curently most refs would call it back as they would think Jack must have cheated to outgate the World Champ.

Other attempts to equalise the sport include points limits, averages to two decimal places, differing scoring systems - a bonus point for winning on aggregate, but then it was pointed out that that system favours teams with a big home advantage so we change again to reward teams that do well away without winning. Now its starting offences. All these changes were made to make tings more equal and surprise surprise we still have winners and losers. The one thing all these changes haven't done is stop falling crowds. I say go back to basics touch or break tapes and you are out everything else is ok. You might even generate some atmosphere as the crowd gets wound up by the so called cheats. And as a good many have said on here the racing isn't better or worse than before but the atmosphere due to falling crowds is.

[tellboy]

2 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Because moving/rolling is cheating to gain an unfair advantage

Like SharpenRake said take that rule away and it wouldn't be classed as cheating as you say.I think there should only be one rule on this if you touch the tapes you are out.This should be much easier for the referee to.You have only got to see the balls up made at the GP at the weekend regarding unsatisfactory starts.If you are a rider and want to try and anticipate the start fair enough in my eyes,he will only penalise himself if he gets it wrong.

[foamfence]

In the days when you could do pretty much anything bar break the tapes, it seemed to me that there were less first bend incidents. The current obsession of having everyone leaving the start-line side by side, might be OK on some big tracks but most tracks in this country are too short and narrow. If we had the under starters order light on quicker, it might cut out some of the delaying tactics, such as gardening and pretending to adjust your clutch pull.

Edited July 23, 2018 by foamfence

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Take away the rules about engine sizes, carb sizes, tyre tread and widths and they wouldnt be cheating either

Thats not much of an arguement to support a change IMO

[E I Addio]

Under Rule 15.2.1 each race should start no more than 4 minutes after the finish of the previous one, including the two minute allowance. As soon as the two minute allowance is finished the riders come under the direction of the start Marshall and have to be ready to start. Therefore a rider who gets to the gate say thirty seconds after the two minutes comes on he has a minute and a half to prepare his start but one who gets there as the time expire has no time. Most referees that I see these days seem to keep meetings ticking over at a reasonble pace.

[ragdoll64]

This moving at the start rule is ruining Speedway. As has been said already it should be..."touch the tapes and you're out". After the green light goes on it shouldn't matter whether you move or not. 

As far as riders being pulled in by others moving is concerned, the magnets could be concealed, making the riders have to look at the tapes for starting as was the procedure years ago. 

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

Concealed magnets

Tighter tapes

Riders lined up just a few cms from the tapes

Then it could work making the rule let it go unless the tapes are touched

[Terry]

All these unsatisfactory starts in gp's just sucks the energy out of the meeting. You just think "here we go again" as the mechanics come charging onto the track and start 'fannying about' (I believe that's the technical term for it.)

Half the time a rider's just reacted quickly and made the perfect start, but the ref assumes he must have cheated.

It certainly doesn't pay to have quick reflexes anymore..Bob Kilby would suffer these days!

 

[IainB]

I was thinking about this the other day and thinking that we may have gotten a bit too uptight about the starting process. So what if James Sarjeant traps ahead of NKI or Doyle surely it would be good to watch NKI or Doyle trying to get by Sarj. I remember Jason Gage beating Hans Nielsen at the EoES, he brought the house down and I also remember Andy Meredith nearly beating Hans at Cov when Nielsen rode for Oxford!

[martinmauger]

Hull's Frank Auffret beat both Bruce Penhall & Bobby Schwartz in an England v USA test match at the Boulevard in 1980 ( yea it was), now THAT brought the house down ....

Edited July 24, 2018 by martinmauger
correted info

[Tabashir]

16 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

Because moving/rolling is cheating to gain an unfair advantage

I know it is cheating *now* because that is the rule *now*. My question was more why did the rule get brought in from the time it wasn't a rule, thus wasn't cheating (and should we go back to the original rules).

10 hours ago, Terry said:

All these unsatisfactory starts in gp's just sucks the energy out of the meeting. You just think "here we go again" as the mechanics come charging onto the track and start 'fannying about' (I believe that's the technical term for it.)

Couldn't agree more, except it's not just GPs. I pay to see speedway racing, not draw out the evening listening to the same pop tracks over a tannoy each week and drinking the fizzy 'beer' on offer, even though due to delays and restarts that's what I end up doing! 'Certainly when I've taken non-speedway friends along, they have generally enjoyed the racing but can't understand why they've been there over 2 hours to see 15 mins of racing. Makes me think this is one thing that is not helping speedway's popularity.

12 hours ago, E I Addio said:

Under Rule 15.2.1 each race should start no more than 4 minutes after the finish of the previous one, including the two minute allowance...... Most referees that I see these days seem to keep meetings ticking over at a reasonble pace.

Although the last couple of seasons, I think there has been an improvement, there is definitely a marked difference in some refs on how quickly the 2 mins comes on between heats. I'm sure some of them read it as there should be at least 4 minutes before the 2 mins comes on...!

[OveFundinFan]

Of course moving at the tapes is a form of trying to gain an advantage (cheating).  Bikes in Moto GP cannot move at the start (penalty if they do). Cars in F1 cannot move at the start (Penalty if they do). With Moto GP and F1 they have many laps to sort out a winner - in speedway there are 4, taking about a minute. Starts have to be right. Speedway cannot have a ride through/drive through penalty like MotoGP/F1 so it has to be right.  The starts in speedway, GPs at least, are far too long, riders nerves are jangling, moves are made due to that, sort the time out between light off and tape up, hold the tapes shorter time scale, don't open pit gates, and things would be better. I don't want to see rollers like there used to be in the 70's/80's, what I want to see is 4 riders getting away evenly.  Ivan Mauger was just one of those who took advantage of big rollers, but even he was out rollered by Jerzy Szakiel in a Polish world final - that was a terrible start - anyone who wants to see that again is NOT seeing speedway racing at its best.

[Tabashir]

I see your point @OveFundinFan, just think that we've maybe gone too far the other way. Speedway is at it's essence very simple. It can be very exciting but all the rules (and delays) can detract from that. As @DontForgetTheFuelTapsBruv mentions, maybe starting them closer to the tapes so they can't move without touching them is the answer. Or as mentioned in another thread, transponders so that there can be no arguments.

 

[E I Addio]

39 minutes ago, Tabashir said:

I see your point @OveFundinFan, just think that we've maybe gone too far the other way. Speedway is at it's essence very simple. It can be very exciting but all the rules (and delays) can detract from that. As @DontForgetTheFuelTapsBruv mentions, maybe starting them closer to the tapes so they can't move without touching them is the answer. Or as mentioned in another thread, transponders so that there can be no arguments.

 

The rules already require the riders to be lined up 75 mm ( 3inches) from the tapes. You can't realistically get any closer than that without touching them.

Speedway is a sprint and in any sort of sprint people will at times jump the start. Look at any big athletics meeting. The 100 metres final will often have two or three false starts because the athletes are twitchy. Compare that with the 5000 metres where the start is less important and false starts are virtually unheard of.

[OveFundinFan]

Speedway is stuck in a rut re starts, referring to the use of tapes. Moto GP and F1 have at least 22 lined up but movement is much less then in speedway. Tapes themselves can flutter due to wind which in itself must “encourage” riders jumping. So transponders need testing, maybe a problem with ruts and shale affecting efficiency so how about a green light start, together with a beam in front and a beam behind to limit movement. But keep them pit gates closed, that in itself would make a big difference.

[MattK]

MotoGp and F1 also have 50+ laps, so while the start is important it isn't as critical as in speedway.

The tapes themselves aren't really a problem as the riders don't watch the tapes, they watch the mechanism attached to the gate.

Given speedway's spit and sawdust approach I can't see transponders, lasers or any other tech as the solution.

At the end of the day, two false starts in 23 heats seems like a reasonable outcome to me.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

The rules already require the riders to be lined up 75 mm ( 3inches) from the tapes. You can't realistically get any closer than that without touching them.

Speedway is a sprint and in any sort of sprint people will at times jump the start. Look at any big athletics meeting. The 100 metres final will often have two or three false starts because the athletes are twitchy. Compare that with the 5000 metres where the start is less important and false starts are virtually unheard of.

The 75mm rule needs to be enforced and that would tidy up 90% of the issue

As you say it is almost impossible to move and not hit the tapes from that distance

Invariably though most riders are significantly further back and even when called in by the marshall return to the withdrawn position once he moves attention to the next rider!