NO WORD FROM THE BSPA

[wealdstone]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 4:40 PM, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

 

Can there be anymore of a bizarre situation than when the mafia ( possibly the dynamic duo) are being roundly condemned  by fans , press and riders but they still sit tight with two fingers up to their critics.

[Halifaxtiger]

18 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

 ok and Chris Harris confirming that they cannot make ends meet racing for just one team in the UK.

 

18 hours ago, KevH said:

Define 'making ends meet'.

How does 'making ends meet' compare with the average National wage?

Precisely 

The thing is that speedway has never been - apart from for the top boys - a full time occupation even during the season. History contains many examples of that - Gary Peterson, despite being a top rider in the NL, complaining that he could not make it pay in the late 1960's, Mick Bell, a championship winner on 3 occasions in the 1970's British League saying that it was 'just a good paying hobby', Dave Morton, a heat leader in the 1985 Ellesmere Port team, admitting that he had to go into the motor trade and, perhaps the most telling of all, Tony Davey - an 8.5 rider in the British League in the 1970's - saying that he would have to sell his car to buy a new engine.

Doubling up solves that problem, but it creates a disastrous situation for the sport in that you either have teams full of guests or clubs are forced to ride on nights when they cannot attract crowds. Riders are simply going to have to realise that this cannot continue, or they will only be turning for one team because so many have closed.

Dean said the other day - and he is absolutely right - that the tail is wagging the dog. Riders simply have to wake up and smell the coffee, realise that speedway isn't a full time occupation and adapt accordingly.

 

[acef]

9 hours ago, ouch said:

If teams are so important why didn’t Cradley at Stoke or Wolves work and why such resistance to Coventry at Leicester?

Because, as I'm sure you agree, teams are absolutely irrelevant. It's a line trotted out by people minus a brain cell. 

The declining crowds tell us quite clearly that the racing is the core issue.

You can't sell a team aspect if the product is boring. You address the racing first, get the customer on the hook and THEN push the team element. 

This is schoolboy stuff imo. It's really really simple. I'm perplexed that the majority just don't get it. 

[acef]

9 hours ago, Stoke Potter said:

I knew it would be a laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The post you quoted was just total tripe. 

I dont believe people can be THAT stupid. 

[Halifaxtiger]

1 hour ago, acef said:

Because, as I'm sure you agree, teams are absolutely irrelevant. It's a line trotted out by people minus a brain cell. 

The declining crowds tell us quite clearly that the racing is the core issue.

You can't sell a team aspect if the product is boring. You address the racing first, get the customer on the hook and THEN push the team element. 

This is schoolboy stuff imo. It's really really simple. I'm perplexed that the majority just don't get it. 

I'd say that's inaccurate as saying that the racing is irrelevant, its all about the team.

There are those - and I am definitely one of them - who go to speedway just for the sheer excitement of it all and hence go to tracks where racing is best

I have absolutely no doubt, though, that the overwhelming majority of speedway supporters are not like that and go to watch their team. Some will even put up with rubbish on the track every week. That is evidenced by the debate, argument and bias on this forum.

As a good example, I went to Belle Vue on Monday for the quality of the speedway. My friend - a long time season ticket holder - was there to support the Aces.

In my - considerable - experience the racing today is no better or worse in general than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. While I am of the opinion that a better standard of racing would pull more people in, falling crowds are not down to an equally falling standard out on the track.

Belle Vue is easily the best racing track in the country, yet their gates have apparently fallen by about 30% this season. The racing is as good as ever; the decline has been down to the change in race night, nothing more.

 

[acef]

50 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I'd say that's inaccurate as saying that the racing is irrelevant, its all about the team.

There are those - and I am definitely one of them - who go to speedway just for the sheer excitement of it all and hence go to tracks where racing is best

I have absolutely no doubt, though, that the overwhelming majority of speedway supporters are not like that and go to watch their team. Some will even put up with rubbish on the track every week. That is evidenced by the debate, argument and bias on this forum.

As a good example, I went to Belle Vue on Monday for the quality of the speedway. My friend - a long time season ticket holder - was there to support the Aces.

In my - considerable - experience the racing today is no better or worse in general than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. While I am of the opinion that a better standard of racing would pull more people in, falling crowds are not down to an equally falling standard out on the track.

Belle Vue is easily the best racing track in the country, yet their gates have apparently fallen by about 30% this season. The racing is as good as ever; the decline has been down to the change in race night, nothing more.

 

Crowds are in double digit decline YOY. Its massive. The majority of fans may go for the team element but what is the majority now? 1k on average per top flight team? Its dropping like a stone so if I was developing this sport I would instantly change the dynamic. 

Speedway isn't adapting. You can't sell a product if the product isn't right. 

I've ran my own pubs/restaurants throughout my career. Without blowing my own trumpet, I'm very successful with it. My guest is KING. Absolutely nobody leaves my businesses unhappy. What the customer wants, the customer gets. Period. As a consequence my trip advisor ratings are through the roof. That is the basis of any business. Stability in the foundations. Make sure the product you sell is bang on the money and then you start to promote and sell/expand. 

This is where speedway fails every single time. You can't sell a team aspect if the racing (the core product/foundation) isn't right. 

I'm not saying the team element isn't important, it is, but it will stand for nothing if the main event doesn't capture your customer. 

I'll say for the umpteenth time, ask ANY neutral with a minimal knowledge of this sport how they feel about it, and they will all give the same answer. They are going to tell you they were bored. They are not interested in the team element. They only come once, because the main event didn't sell. 

If one of my restaurants started showing any sign of decline or poor guest feedback I would immediately pull the plug on any marketing or sales driving until I identified the issue and fixed it. That is called being counter productive and will do more harm than good trying to grow something that isn't working. 

If one of my businesses was in the same level of decline as speedway, I wouldn't be listening to the remaining guests I had telling me everything was fine, because it quite clearly isn't. Just because those minimal fans that attend speedway say they go for the team element doesn't mean that the team element is right, because your declining like crazy! It's an utterly stupid logic and displays a basic lack of common sense. A lot of supporters still in this sport are the same ones as 20/30 years ago. Speedway doesn't know how to capture a new audience and like it's core, declining fan base, is stuck in 1985. Society has moved forward. 

For speedway it really isn't difficult. The speedway is the hook, the team element is the sell. In that order. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by acef

[New Science]

4 hours ago, New Science said:

Reading this forum it seems all fans want is a full team of mainly British / local riders who only ride for their team,don't race abroad or in any F.IM , One Sport event. On the night of their choice with a TV deal in place and all for a tenner.

And not forgetting all the riders are semi professional working 40 hours a week to supplement their hobby but allowed all the time off they need to travel to and from away matches for your team 

[moxey63]

26 minutes ago, acef said:

Crowds are in double digit decline YOY. Its massive. The majority of fans may go for the team element but what is the majority now? 1k on average per top flight team? Its dropping like a stone so if I was developing this sport I would instantly change the dynamic. 

Speedway isn't adapting. You can't sell a product if the product isn't right. 

I've ran my own pubs/restaurants throughout my career. Without blowing my own trumpet, I'm very successful with it. My guest is KING. Absolutely nobody leaves my businesses unhappy. What the customer wants, the customer gets. Period. As a consequence my trip advisor ratings are through the roof. That is the basis of any business. Stability in the foundations. Make sure the product you sell is bang on the money and then you start to promote and sell/expand. 

This is where speedway fails every single time. You can't sell a team aspect if the racing (the core product/foundation) isn't right. 

I'm not saying the team element isn't important, it is, but it will stand for nothing if the main event doesn't capture your customer. 

I'll say for the umpteenth time, ask ANY neutral with a minimal knowledge of this sport how they feel about it, and they will all give the same answer. They are going to tell you they were bored. They are not interested in the team element. They only come once, because the main event didn't sell. 

If one of my restaurants started showing any sign of decline or poor guest feedback I would immediately pull the plug on any marketing or sales driving until I identified the issue and fixed it. That is called being counter productive and will do more harm than good trying to grow something that isn't working. 

If one of my businesses was in the same level of decline as speedway, I wouldn't be listening to the remaining guests I had telling me everything was fine, because it quite clearly isn't. Just because those minimal fans that attend speedway say they go for the team element doesn't mean that the team element is right, because your declining like crazy! It's an utterly stupid logic and displays a basic lack of common sense. A lot of supporters still in this sport are the same ones as 20/30 years ago. Speedway doesn't know how to capture a new audience and like it's core, declining fan base, is stuck in 1985. Society has moved forward. 

For speedway it really isn't difficult. The speedway is the hook, the team element is the sell. In that order. 

Speedway's hook is the spectacle. But after a few heats that gets boring. Many newcomers may never return. They must be grabbed on that first occasion and shown that it isn't just motorcycle racing, but a sport in which equally important is being able to follow the scoring method. Racing and the scoring system then become equally as important.

[wealdstone]

There are a multitude of reasons but one of the major factors is imo there are no Stars any more. In days gone by many would go to a meeting because a Star name was riding, and each team had at least one.  It is a long time since we have anything like that situation. 

[Stoke Potter]

42 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

I'd say that's inaccurate as saying that the racing is irrelevant, its all about the team.

There are those - and I am definitely one of them - who go to speedway just for the sheer excitement of it all and hence go to tracks where racing is best

I have absolutely no doubt, though, that the overwhelming majority of speedway supporters are not like that and go to watch their team. Some will even put up with rubbish on the track every week. That is evidenced by the debate, argument and bias on this forum.

As a good example, I went to Belle Vue on Monday for the quality of the speedway. My friend - a long time season ticket holder - was there to support the Aces.

In my - considerable - experience the racing today is no better or worse in general than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. While I am of the opinion that a better standard of racing would pull more people in, falling crowds are not down to an equally falling standard out on the track.

Belle Vue is easily the best racing track in the country, yet their gates have apparently fallen by about 30% this season. The racing is as good as ever; the decline has been down to the change in race night, nothing more.

 

Unfortunately the point is being missed by you, and countless others and I don't mean that to sound offensive.  Apologies if it does.

Twisting the argument to be about team speedway or individual speedway is irrelevant.  Neither format currently pulls in crowds of sufficient numbers for a sustainable future for UK Speedway.  Further, stating that the current (very small) crop of speedway fans go to watch their team is also irrelevant.  You can't survive on those people.  UK Promoters will tell you individual meetings pull in worse crowds than league meetings.

Purely for arguments sake, say that the current average national speedway crowd is 500.  It's completely pointless to try and build a sustainable national sport on those crowd levels, the national average needs to be up around (say) 2000 (I believe it should be far higher but that's a different argument again) as a minimum.  How did you get an extra average 1500 people to turn out? 
You improve the product, make it something exciting that more people want to watch in the 21st century.  That leads into the point of "well the racing is as good as it's always been".  Again this is largely irrelevant even if it's true (I'm doubtful); the point is it's highly likely that crowds now are pretty much at an all time low. So, interest in the sport amongst the general public is at an all-time low. 
Conclusion:  Joe Public does not want to watch what is sold as Speedway in this country.  Marketing the current offering has been tried and people don't return.  Why?  Because for the most part it's rubbish.  Change the product, by making the racing exciting.  All is not lost however because Speedway does work in some countries so it can be made to work.

[acef]

9 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

 But after a few heats that gets boring. 

Then we need to change that, surely? 

That is why I'm beating the same drum about the quality of track. Forget changing the bikes, it's not economical and needs to come from the FIM for it to work properly. 

There is a harsh reality around the circuits we have here, they don't suit the modern machine so they need to be adapted to fit. 

We have suffered for years because we are inherently built within dog tracks. It worked for a long time. It doesn't anymore. 

Look at the results of a purpose built speedway stadium in the NSS, ironically just as they are in Poland and Sweden, its results speak volumes. A track that perfectly suits the sport of speedway. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by acef

[acef]

13 minutes ago, Stoke Potter said:

Unfortunately the point is being missed by you, and countless others and I don't mean that to sound offensive.  Apologies if it does.

Twisting the argument to be about team speedway or individual speedway is irrelevant.  Neither format currently pulls in crowds of sufficient numbers for a sustainable future for UK Speedway.  Further, stating that the current (very small) crop of speedway fans go to watch their team is also irrelevant.  You can't survive on those people.  UK Promoters will tell you individual meetings pull in worse crowds than league meetings.

Purely for arguments sake, say that the current average national speedway crowd is 500.  It's completely pointless to try and build a sustainable national sport on those crowd levels, the national average needs to be up around (say) 2000 (I believe it should be far higher but that's a different argument again) as a minimum.  How did you get an extra average 1500 people to turn out? 
You improve the product, make it something exciting that more people want to watch in the 21st century.  That leads into the point of "well the racing is as good as it's always been".  Again this is largely irrelevant even if it's true (I'm doubtful); the point is it's highly likely that crowds now are pretty much at an all time low. So, interest in the sport amongst the general public is at an all-time low. 
Conclusion:  Joe Public does not want to watch what is sold as Speedway in this country.  Marketing the current offering has been tried and people don't return.  Why?  Because for the most part it's rubbish.  Change the product, by making the racing exciting.  All is not lost however because Speedway does work in some countries so it can be made to work.

True story this. Scouts honour. 

I can't remember which meeting it was, but I took one of my staff to the NSS a few weeks ago for the first time (to any speedway meeting). 

I remember the first half of the meeting being pretty much gate and go and I was sitting there thinking I don't believe this. It had been roasting all day and they had overwatered the track. As it dried and went slick, I think it was heat 7, it was like someone flicked a switch. All of a sudden the racing was top banana like it always is at the NSS. He said to me on the way home that he loved it. He was on the edge of his seat. 

Last week he came back! That's right, back! True story!

Morale is, the racing (eventually) got him. That's the hook. 

So now of course, I'm giving him the sell last week about teams, how the general principle of it goes etc. Again he really enjoys it, he can see himself getting into it so he's coming with me to the next meeting. 

The sport sold itself to him. 4 men on 4 bikes doing 4 laps having a race. Pass after pass and of course your right on top of it at the NSS. 

No fancy stuff, the sport did it all by itslef.

[jenga]

but it comes at a great cost. that cost is massive in terms of setting up . 

weas a country are in deep doo daaa . high street shops are closing, there is no spare money left to enjoy something that was once a night out, a wee craic with riders in the bar .  riders cant wait to get away to their next gig. its money they are chasing and no one else matters but them .some tracks do the after meeting talk ins , others C.B.A.speedway needs to go back to its roots and be an extra income outside of their day job . it worked before and it should work again .

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

1 hour ago, acef said:

I'll say for the umpteenth time, ask ANY neutral with a minimal knowledge of this sport how they feel about it, and they will all give the same answer. They are going to tell you they were bored. They are not interested in the team element. They only come once, because the main event didn't sell. 

for the first timer it is all about the experience they feel, a female couldn't give two hoots about a pass in every race and the best meeting of the season, but if she is with mates and they are having a blast and everyone around them is too it will give them a good experience, I hate football with a passion but I got invited to stoke v man utd last season, I found being in the middle of the fans fascinating, I couldn't even tell you the score as I didn't really care much for the match but it was an enjoyable experience soley because of the passion of the fans from both sides, and that's what speedway is about, speedway has lost a couple of major things, the team ethic and the social side, it had both back in the day and both brought the enjoyment to the fan experience,i had friends that used to go to speedway just to pull women as the bar was full of them, the racing is no worse today than it was in the 60s 70s 80s 90s ,it has good days and has bad, good tracks and bad tracks always has always will, the racing can always be better but we need to get the public to attend first ,we need to address cost to the public,we need to make them feel like they are getting a bargain and that its the place to be seen ,then the old saying" put a pile of dog poo in a city street people will walk past it, get 30 people to stand round the same poo and other people will stop to have a look" "a crowd attracts a crowd attracts a crowd and so on "  we all want good racing on good tracks but as I said most newcomers especially women don't care for motorcycle racing of any kind as good as it can be but they do care for having a good time with their friends and a crowd going nuts for their team is very infectious

Edited July 19, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[acef]

7 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

for the first timer it is all about the experience they feel, a female couldn't give two hoots about a pass in every race and the best meeting of the season, but if she is with mates and they are having a blast and everyone around them is too it will give them a good experience, I hate football with a passion but I got invited to stoke v man utd last season, I found being in the middle of the fans fascinating, I couldn't even tell you the score as I didn't really care much for the match but it was an enjoyable experience soley because of the passion of the fans from both sides, and that's what speedway is about, speedway has lost a couple of major things, the team ethic and the social side, it had both back in the day and both brought the enjoyment to the fan experience,i had friends that used to go to speedway just to pull women as the bar was full of them the racing is no worse today than it was in the 60s 70s 80s 90s ,it has good days and has bad, good tracks and bad tracks always has always will, the racing can always be better but we need to get the public to attend first ,we need to address cost to the public, the old saying" put a pile of dog poo in a city street people will walk past it, get 30 people to stand round the same poo and other people will stop to have a look" "a crowd attracts a crowd attracts a crowd and so on "  we all want good racing on good tracks but as I said most newcomers especially women don't care for motorcycle racing of any kind as good as it can be but they do care for having a good time with their friends and a crowd going nuts for their team is very infectious

There is always a social element I'll concede that, the atmosphere plays a big role alongside it as well and ultimately bums on seats is revenue whether they like the sport or not. 

I'd counter, though, that I wouldn't want that type of fan in my business per se. I'd want the motorsports fan first of all and then build around it. She can come, but on the back of solid hearsay from those who do actually enjoy the sport. At the moment we are struggling to hold onto any type of racing fan, be it road dirt or track. 

When you start focusing on the parts around your main offering its really easy to forget why we are here. Ultimately we are selling speedway here, that should always be at least 80% of your revenue, people who enjoy it. 

Building this social element and team thing etc, it's all great, but it's not what we start with, it's what follows when we have a smooth sailing product. 

Your trying to start with it as a means to make the the thing fly. 

You need the wings first Dean. 

[acef]

28 minutes ago, jenga said:

peedway needs to go back to its roots and be an extra income outside of their day job . it worked before and it should work again .

It's a nice sentiment but this is 2018. In days gone by the sport was cheaper and essentially amateur. 

Its trying to be professional over here and imo that's where it needs to be. Costs will rise, that's life. It happens everywhere and is a consequence of the sport being much more refined than it ever was. 

The youngsters want the bling. They want they shiny sockets. The gold front chain. The carbon fibre exhaust. 

The old guard don't like it and want to cut costs but that's evolution. People change. Things change. Life changes.

Adapt

Edited July 19, 2018 by acef

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

12 minutes ago, acef said:

There is always a social element I'll concede that, the atmosphere plays a big role alongside it as well and ultimately bums on seats is revenue whether they like the sport or not. 

I'd counter, though, that I wouldn't want that type of fan in my business per se. I'd want the motorsports fan first of all and then build around it. She can come, but on the back of solid hearsay from those who do actually enjoy the sport. At the moment we are struggling to hold onto any type of racing fan, be it road dirt or track. 

When you start focusing on the parts around your main offering its really easy to forget why we are here. Ultimately we are selling speedway here, that should always be at least 80% of your revenue, people who enjoy it. 

Building this social element and team thing etc, it's all great, but it's not what we start with, it's what follows when we have a smooth sailing product. 

Your trying to start with it as a means to make the the thing fly. 

You need the wings first Dean. 

but this goes back to my old argument that speedway isn't a motorsport, it never has been, it a team sport on motorbikes , that's been its appeal since day one, its not like any other motorsport, ( the twitter poll seems to agree with me )we have never appealed to dirt or road track fans on mass,i always think of my mrs as the typical fan, she has been to speedway all her life yet she couldn't tell you the difference from a jawa to a gm or a weslake to a jap and we own all of the above, to her its a bike and that is typical to the majority of speedway fans including the ones that have left the sport, what she can identify with is the riders and her team. to address the racing you need to address the bikes and you disagreed with that but changing tracks will do nothing there will still be bad meetings even on the best tracks that is the nature of the sport

Edited July 19, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

4 minutes ago, acef said:

It's a nice sentiment but this is 2018. In days gone by the sport was cheaper and essentially amateur. 

Its trying to be professional over here and imo that's where it needs to be. Costs will rise, that's life. It happens everywhere and is a consequence of the sport being much more ferined than it ever was. 

The youngsters want the bling. They want they shiny sockets. The gold front chain. The carbon fibre exhaust. 

The old guard don't like it and want to cut costs but that's evolution. People change. Things change. Life changes.

Adapt

I sort of class myself as the old guard but im trying to cut costs for the riders because come next season and they have their pay halved they will be moaning like hell , its not that I don't want them to have it, I couldn't really care less what they spend but being an ex rider I want to help them

[acef]

4 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

but this goes back to my old argument that speedway isn't a motorsport, it never has been, it a team sport on motorbikes , that's been its appeal since day one, its not like any other motorsport, ( the twitter poll seems to agree with me )we have never appealed to dirt or road track fans on mass,i always think of my mrs as the typical fan, she has been to speedway all her life yet she couldn't tell you the difference from a jawa to a gm or a weslake to a jap, to her its a bike and that is typical to the majority of speedway fans including the ones that have left the sport, what she can identify with is the riders and her team. to address the racing you need to address the bikes and you disagreed with that but changing tracks will do nothing there will still be bad meetings even on the best tracks that is the nature of the sport

Then perhaps it needs to start selling its self as a motorsport? That's the obvious answer to this isn't it? 

I keep talking about the word decline. Its really important. Just because the few remaining fans are telling us that it's a team sport, just because some people think it's always been for the family and the freind etc, doesn't mean it is or that it has to be. 

I'll use the analogy I did earlier. If my restaurant was declining I wouldn't be listening to the remaining customers who were telling me its great because it isn't, I'm declining. I have an issue that needs addressing. 

Its the same here. Speedway might have always attracted a certain crowd, but that crowd is gone and we are not recycling it. That instantly tells me that all the things you think are right, are actually wrong because it's not increasing footfall. All the things you are raising, like the team element, the argument it's not a motorsport, those things are still here and we STILL DECLINING. 

Your twitter poll proves nothing. You have a captured audience dean, who like you, are stuck in a time warp 30 years ago. 

If you don't change what you do you will continue to get the same results. 

 

[acef]

11 minutes ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

I sort of class myself as the old guard but im trying to cut costs for the riders because come next season and they have their pay halved they will be moaning like hell , its not that I don't want them to have it, I couldn't really care less what they spend but being an ex rider I want to help them

It costs what it costs. That's the value. If they can't afford it then they need to step off the saddle. 

I hear you. I get why you'd want to help, but the sport is moving in the direction it's moving in because of Poland and the big bucks. 

That's just too big a fight imo.