acef Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said: I don't think the tracks are the problem. People need to be attracted to the sport in the first place - and I don't mean the odd friend or two of an existing fan. The sport alone will never sell itself in the UK. Its image is boring. That is the general consensus. On the continent the product can also be boring, but the climate is entirely different out there so it still works. We have a major issue with the image here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said: Does the average worker also have to buy and maintain expensive equipment, and are they likely to get injured or dropped after one match with no compensation? It's trying compare and apples and pears, but the reality is that no matter how much riders may or may not deserve the wages they get, it comes back to the fact that sport can only afford to pay what it generates in revenue. The average worker, who is self employed, has a decision to make whether purchasing the equipment to do their jobs will deliver profit to them. Speedway riders should be no different.. The levels of danger for any job unfortunately don't usually equate to an expected salary otherwise the armed forces and the fire brigade would get £300k a week and footballers would earn £500 a week.. Simply the sport pays out ludicrous amounts in relation to it's fan base levels.. Basketball and Ice Hockey in GB have crowds that some Speedway teams would be more than pleased to get but won't be paying out thousands a night to individuals... The Sport is fast approaching it's nadir and reality will need to kick in, if it hasn't already.. Riders spending £10k to £20k or so on kit to compete will simply have to stop doing it.. I am sure riders like Dean Felton, Jon Armstrong and Tony Atkin for example could show lads how to maintain competitive equipment without breaking their bank accounts or requesting thousands off their promoters to pay for new gear all the time.. I remember PC ( as well as other top riders) often winning races when having to use a team mates bike when they had mechanical issues, PC even used reserves bikes sometimes.. Amazingly the reserves bikes suddenly were 'rocket ships' in the hands of the very best.. As we often see, it really isn't the thousands spent on the bike that makes the difference but the rider riding it.. As costs escalate and riders try to out do each other by spending more (and therefore requesting more), it really will be a race to the bottom which no one will get any satisfaction winning... Reality needs to kick in, and very, very quickly.. Edited July 18, 2018 by mikebv 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, acef said: At BV you get about 60% of the racing being edge of the seat stuff. The club had decent crowds last year, up on the stadiums debut season I belive. This year serious decline and that's because of the race night. Good racing puts bums on seats because the crowd are being entertained. I didn't say that it didn't. I just said that it wasn't the major factor IMO, and as you help to point out because despite the racing being as good as it was it's not enough to draw the punters in. Personally I'd go any night to BV (Tuesday and Sunday apart), it's the sort of stuff I'd want to watch regularly. Edited July 18, 2018 by Crump99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, Richard Weston said: Totally agree. As an Eagles' supporter, here was a chance to see some 'old boys' - not far away. Had arranged work to give me plenty of time to battle M 25. Will I do it for the re-staging? Maybe, obviously will not if it is run in opposition to an Eastbourne meeting. Here was a match I -- and others – wanted to see (Adam E for the home team as well). The rug has been pulled from beneath us. So the BSPA leaves me unhappy, annoyed (insert stronger language to taste). Even if the res-staging fits my agenda, I am tempted to boycott but then only Lakeside would suffer, which would be unfair. One day, the BSPA will find every fan has boycotted a particular meeting. What else can we do to make our point to those who control the sport? I doubt that a crowd of zero would convince them that they've got a problem. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acef Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Crump99 said: I didn't say that it didn't. I just said that it wasn't the major factor IMO, and as you help to point out because despite the racing being as good as it was it's not enough to draw the punters in. Personally I'd go any night to BV (Tuesday and Sunday apart), it's the sort of stuff I'd want to watch regularly. I'd also go any night. The reason the crowds are down is purely due to the race night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, acef said: I'd also go any night. The reason the crowds are down is purely due to the race night. One Million Per Cent. I have been once this year due to Monday racing.. I know of three others who have been possibly to one more meeting than me due to Monday racing... And we are nowhere near alone... Literally hundreds are not attending due to losing Friday and Saturday.. Not a major issue if you average 10,000 I would say... It is however when you are dropping from 1500 or so to below 1000... A very major issue... And the longer it goes on, the longer the disconnect... And the easier it is therefore to not bother at all in the future.. Like so many thousands and thousands have found over the past 20 years of so... Edited July 18, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: Here is 2 examples of my fan experience at a speedway meeting Monday night I went to wolves vSwindon , no passing not even close racing, scoreline never in doubt so not a close meeting . Crowd was average but silent, no atmosphere,feels like no hero’s for fans to cheer, stadium pretty good and at £18 I felt ripped off, not in a rush to go back there even though it’s ny local track, last season I went to Gdańsk v Torun , the meeting had no passing and scoreline wasn’t close and never in doubt, pretty dull meeting ,crowd was massive and the atmosphere was amazing,the stadium is Wooden benches on concrete steps, the home fans went nuts for their hero’s and at £4 to get in it felt like a bargain and we had a blast and can’t wait to go over again ,speedway is all about the fan experience From my experience of watching speedway in Poland, its very different from the UK. Speedway in Poland is very tribal, more akin to football in this country. The 2 biggest cities in Poland have very little speedway interest but I have seen a riot at a Leszno/ Zielona Gora fixture about 7 years ago, 2 small towns in Poland. I went to the playoff final at Leszno 3 years ago and counted a fleet of 14 riot vans in attendance, very dissimilar to the family friendly atmosphere you get in the UK. That is not going to change . Edited July 18, 2018 by New Science 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 25 minutes ago, mikebv said: One Million Per Cent. I have been once this year due to Monday racing.. I know of three others who have been possibly to one more meeting than me due to Monday racing... And we are nowhere near alone... Literally hundreds are not attending due to losing Friday and Saturday.. Not a major issue if you average 10,000 I would say... It is however when you are dropping from 1500 or so to below 1000... A very major issue... And the longer it goes on, the longer the disconnect... And the easier it is therefore to not bother at all in the future.. Like so many thousands and thousands have found over the past 20 years of so... Would you be prepared to accept teams filled with guests / Rider Rep due to riders doubling up in 2 leagues /SGP /World u21 /GP qualification/ Polish fixtures / European Championship/ Euro Pairs etc etc to get back to Friday speedway at Belle Vue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, SPEEDY69 said: I don't think the tracks are the problem. People need to be attracted to the sport in the first place - and I don't mean the odd friend or two of an existing fan. How do you attract these people? The product is, for the most part, utterly dire! One sentence answer each from yourself, Grand Central, Fromafar and The Dean Machine. As they liked the post and seemed to think this was somehow inspired thinking... Bare in mind, that every marketing initiative attempted over at least the last 10 (probably 20) years has utterly failed to improved crowds over any sustained period. This will be a laugh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 32 minutes ago, New Science said: Would you be prepared to accept teams filled with guests / Rider Rep due to riders doubling up in 2 leagues /SGP /World u21 /GP qualification/ Polish fixtures / European Championship/ Euro Pairs etc etc to get back to Friday speedway at Belle Vue Can’t see doubling up next year. SGP - There’s only 2 riders currently. World u21 - Not much of a crossover there. GP qualification - Same European Championship - Same Euro Pairs - Same Polish fixtures - Sunday. Fitting twenty odd fixtures into 30 odd weeks should be done without the need for clashes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 minute ago, ouch said: Can’t see doubling up next year. SGP - There’s only 2 riders currently. World u21 - Not much of a crossover there. GP qualification - Same European Championship - Same Euro Pairs - Same Polish fixtures - Sunday. Fitting twenty odd fixtures into 30 odd weeks should be done without the need for clashes. Just for instance Belle Vue's own Dan Bewley. Doubling up, yes if available ,World u21 yes, GP qualifiers yes, European Championship maybe, Polish fixtures, if Rybnik get promoted then any Friday, Saturday , Sunday of their choice. If doubling up goes, ie 1 League are you happy to see the TV deal go ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 I don’t think we should jerpodize the clubs future for one rider even if the fixture planner is so inept that they cannot plan correctly. We need a top league for a TV deal. Are you saying the NL will stop next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, ouch said: Can’t see doubling up next year. SGP - There’s only 2 riders currently. World u21 - Not much of a crossover there. GP qualification - Same European Championship - Same Euro Pairs - Same Polish fixtures - Sunday. Fitting twenty odd fixtures into 30 odd weeks should be done without the need for clashes. IN SS this week both Craig Cook and Chris Harris confirming that they cannot make ends meet racing for just one team in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevH Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said: IN SS this week both Craig Cook and Chris Harris confirming that they cannot make ends meet racing for just one team in the UK. Define 'making ends meet'. How does 'making ends meet' compare with the average National wage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Stoke Potter said: How do you attract these people? The product is, for the most part, utterly dire! One sentence answer each from yourself, Grand Central, Fromafar and The Dean Machine. As they liked the post and seemed to think this was somehow inspired thinking... Bare in mind, that every marketing initiative attempted over at least the last 10 (probably 20) years has utterly failed to improved crowds over any sustained period. This will be a laugh... TBH I do not think that the product is dire. That is really your view, not mine. But at the same time I do not think that there IS ANY specific thing that can be done to to 'attract people'. That, I fear, may be an unsurmountable problem. People are just not receptive to any message on the Speedway front. And most of the reasons for that are actually nothing to do with the internal workings of the sport itself. They are much more to do with the seismic generational changes that have occured in the 'outside world'; of which most Speedway folk seem to be oblivious. One thing is for certain. It does not lead me to believe ANY of the nonsense you keep talking about altering 'tracks' as being any form of answer either. Making the best of what we have still has some milage in saving something of this sport. But that prospect will be lost if people listen to the fairy story that it is the tracks that need changing to drive people through the turnstiles. That is is just fiction. Edited July 18, 2018 by Grand Central 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DEAN MACHINE Posted July 18, 2018 Report Share Posted July 18, 2018 36 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said: IN SS this week both Craig Cook and Chris Harris confirming that they cannot make ends meet racing for just one team in the UK. isn't it strange how 15 years+ ago riders could make ends meet just riding for one team and they were on a lot less money than they are today, so whats changed? the cost of the engines,tuning /servicing or whatever you want to call it has rocketed pretty much doubled and for what ?1mph , many say the racing is worse but it certainly hasn't got better as much as I have sympathy with the riders, life is tough, there has been enough time to see the end coming and to make the bikes cost less to help themselves but riders are not interested, they are happy pouring money out to external sources to have a product which is no better than it was 25 years ago but the answer from acu house will be to put £2 on admission and make all riders double up even more, so as I see it after listening to some on here is to scrap team racing altogether and make it a competitors sport where riders pay to race and earn big prize money and the riders can ride as much as their hearts desire, then the tracks will make money so they can make them bigger and have better racing and we can all just remember team speedway as an outdated concept that nobody really cared about so we signed it off to the history books. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 5 hours ago, New Science said: Would you be prepared to accept teams filled with guests / Rider Rep due to riders doubling up in 2 leagues /SGP /World u21 /GP qualification/ Polish fixtures / European Championship/ Euro Pairs etc etc to get back to Friday speedway at Belle Vue No I wouldn't be prepared to watch teams full of guests... But then again I shouldn't need to... There are enough dates available to work around all the FIM fixtures which are put out well in advance.. 14 home matches in a 28 week season isn't really too difficult to plan in I would suggest... As for the TV deal? Running the odd Monday (if TV cannot change their schedule) would mean the usual impact to crowds but it did that anyway... 12 meetings at weekend and 2 TV meetings on a Monday is far better than 14 Mondays.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said: isn't it strange how 15 years+ ago riders could make ends meet just riding for one team and they were on a lot less money than they are today, so whats changed? the cost of the engines,tuning /servicing or whatever you want to call it has rocketed pretty much doubled and for what ?1mph , many say the racing is worse but it certainly hasn't got better as much as I have sympathy with the riders, life is tough, there has been enough time to see the end coming and to make the bikes cost less to help themselves but riders are not interested, they are happy pouring money out to external sources to have a product which is no better than it was 25 years ago but the answer from acu house will be to put £2 on admission and make all riders double up even more, so as I see it after listening to some on here is to scrap team racing altogether and make it a competitors sport where riders pay to race and earn big prize money and the riders can ride as much as their hearts desire, then the tracks will make money so they can make them bigger and have better racing and we can all just remember team speedway as an outdated concept that nobody really cared about so we signed it off to the history books. That really is the final inevitable end game though Dean... And let's be honest, 'Team Speedway' is now a misnomer in GB (and maybe everywhere?).. It's just an avenue for riders to earn money riding all over Europe and no more than that.. How many times do riders get interviewed on TV and get asked about the score line and they haven't actually got a clue as to what the score is? During interviews that seems to ask more questions about their next individual meeting than the actual meeting they are in that night!!... Cook and Harris say they cannot make ends meet without racing in more than one team over here, and I don't dispute that as these are the lads 'living the dream'... Unfortunately, no matter how you desperately try and ensure none of their teams are effected by clashes, it will be inevitable. So fans will suffer, and the actual credibility of the match they miss will suffer too, which ultimately then means the League itself suffers from a lack of credibilty... (Therefore who cares who wins it?) Surely therefore it would be better for these lads financially to ride five or six times a week individually at different tracks? At least the events the tracks put on will have credibility, no guests, no R/R, on nights that they want to open to bring in the best crowds.. 26 Venues could deliver a lot of Speedway over a season to a lot of riders... The bottom line is a simple one though.. If you cannot run 'Team Speedway' properly then you are better off not running it at all as you can 100% NEVER make it successful.. And you can never run it properly if riders cannot make it pay representing one club like a 'proper' team Sport would allow.... And you can never run it properly with riders having to regularly miss their teams' matches to ride individually elsewhere.. Surely its got to be better for the actual growth and success of the Sport overall (and the riders too), to have the Sport looking professional, running it with credibility, and delivering to the fans what their expectations of a 'proper' Sport is...? Rather than the current cobbled together adhoc operating model, masquerading itself as a bona fide 'Team Sport' concept... An operating model that does absolutely no one (Promoters, Riders, Fans and the actual Sport itself), any good at all... (And never can or will)... Edited July 19, 2018 by mikebv 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Grand Central said: Really??? I think you are totally wrong. All team sport is like this and just as much today as at any time in the past. In all team sports people have THEIR 'Team' and that comes above everything else. I dont think I am saying anything perculiar; and certainly nothing that is at odds with how youngsters think. Just today there was a table in the papers showing that all the PL Fottball clubs Kit Pricing for the new season ... all costing upwards of £80 for Kidsand some double for adults To be dressed like this years team. It matters that much to be like your heroes that is what you pay. I know Footbal 'is different' in many respects. But ALL team sports are about team loyalty.... if they are getting it right. Tuning into that is the future. The only one. Worrying about the 'track' and 'racing' will get us absolutely nowhere. I don't think you can say that the team 'comes above everything else'. In speedway, in particular, the quality of the entertainment is important. Speaking to a Belle Vue fan on Monday (a season ticket holder of long standing), he said if the Aces started losing a lot at home he'd consider stopping going. I think that is true of a lot of speedway fans - they can be most fickle. It can't be a question of the team being everything if you are willing to drop them after a few home defeats and a potential bottom of the league placing. In addition, if the team is winning and the speedway is excellent that is more likely to attract more people than winning alone. Even if the team is losing good quality racing will always entice spectators. I am pretty sure that Scunthorpe, for example, pull in more for the racing than for the team. It is a matter of the team, you're right. But that's not the be all and end all. Get the team and the racing right and you're more likely to be on to a winner. Edited July 19, 2018 by Halifaxtiger 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 19, 2018 Report Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said: I don't think you can say that the team 'comes above everything else'. In speedway, in particular, the quality of the entertainment is important. Speaking to a Belle Vue fan on Monday (a season ticket holder of long standing), he said if the Aces started losing a lot at home he'd consider stopping going. I think that is true of a lot of speedway fans - they can be most fickle. It can't be a question of the team being everything if you are willing to drop them after a few home defeats and a potential bottom of the league placing. In addition, if the team is winning and the speedway is excellent that is more likely to attract more people than winning alone. Even if the team is losing good quality racing will always entice spectators. I am pretty sure that Scunthorpe, for example, pull in more for the racing than for the team. It is a matter of the team, you're right. But that's not the be all and end all. Get the team and the racing right and you're more likely to be on to a winner. Unfortunately the post of mine you quoted was one trying to counter a couple of others who were proposing that it was ONLY wholesale changes to almost every track that would drive the punters through the door. Hence my rather absolutist tone about teams. BUT I notice that I did say team 'comes above everything else' ... That is a phrase that is meant to recognise there ARE multiple factors (just that IMHO 'team' is top of that list). It is NOT a phrase used to indicate that it is ONE single factor alone to the exclusion of any other. The truth is I do agree with much of what you say. Edited July 19, 2018 by Grand Central 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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