Icicle Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 As I have noted before, there are very few sports (&/or clubs) that actually make a clear profit. Most survive on Sponsorship (pref Big Names), Rich owners, & Advertising. Sadly none of the above seems to be understood or sought , this MUST be rectified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 On 13 July 2018 at 6:42 PM, Hawk127 said: I have started to believe that it has become a case of look after number one and collectively the promoters will never agree for the good of the sport. Each club must have a threshold where you say my business cannot continue on this basis, it is not financially viable but rather than all work together to help each other and take the appropriate action to cut costs, it seems that for those clubs who are in difficulty it is tough luck, your problem, not the BSPA. Either that or they have collectively all gone so far down hill that none of them know what to do any longer to save the sport. These are suppose to be businessmen yet some of the decisions are pure madness. The lack of transparency is worrying and way they treat the punters, their number one asset is beyond belief. I don’t think they will wake up until it is too late let alone get a chance to smell the coffee. As an example why not loosen up on the rules of running a track, cut the owners some slack and allow tracks to have open licences to run speedway in whatever format suits them as a regional business. They are in effect a franchise and need to sell Tom the local market. What you do in Newcastle might not appeal to punter s at Lakeside . For example Rye House might then be able to rebuild some confidence and win back supporters with some open meetings and a mixed event including other two wheeled sports. Don’t stop riders taking part because it does not suit your current business model. RH was never ever going to be a successful weekday venue. Since 1974 when Rayleigh moved in and before that it has been a weekend venue. History tells you that so why force a club to race mid week. No doubt other tracks are on the brink and is it not time that the promoters turned to the supporters for help rather than shun them. Is it the case that every club is on the breadline so they HAVE to look after themselves or go out of business? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 hours ago, iainb said: Like when Crabby used to remonstrate with the ref using the phone in front of the stand at Stoke... that was brilliant to watch ...or Oxford Team Manager Bernard Crapper who used to have a go at the ref on the start line phone and when I questioned Bernard many years later he said he was only passing the time of the day with the ref but felt that the meeting needed spicing up! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Stoke Potter said: No they are not equal. This is an exercise in identifying the FUNDAMENTAL problems the sport faces. The biggest problem is the tracks are not fit for purpose. There is no real racing and very little to inspire and capture the imagination of a noob. it's not about team versus individual speedway, Green Helmet Colours, or 13 Heats! None of them, or any of the other pointless suggestions that come out, will make the sport appeal more to the general public. I actually think the racing is at least as good as I have ever seen in the 49 years I have watched it.. The difference between all the riders on show is a lot less than it used to be in the days of '2 point reserves v World Champions', (particularly given that in every one of those races pre fixed gates, the 'World Champions' invariably chose the best gate positions!).... Machinery too is more of a similar standard than ever with even the 'lesser' riders using the best equipment and tuners. With only maybe those lads who ride in the top division in Poland having 'special kit' they wheel out on Sundays or Saturday nights in FIM events.. The biggest difference between 'then and now' is simply the lack of crowd, which means a lack of atmosphere.. No one will be surprised to see the racing at Cardiff will probably be nowhere near as good as an 'average' meeting at the NSS. How could it be? The NSS is a fantastic race track... However a full night of entertainment, on and off track, in front of 40,000 fans rather than just 1,000, will have everyone on the edge of their seats regardless of the fans' subjective opinion of the racing...... Even the 'worst track', delivering the 'worst racing' can be successful if 5,000 a night are there and the 'event' delivers the overall entertainment level that they want from their 'night out'... To digress a moment Craig Cook has said in this weeks Speedway Star he has invested "well over £100,000" in this season's racing... Yes, you read it correct. That's ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND pounds.....!! And if Craig is doing this, to compete with him (and to keep those machinery standards similar that so assists close racing), many, many others (even non GP riders) must be spending incredible amounts too.... THAT I would suggest is a far, far bigger problem for British Speedway than the current state of some tracks... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 33 minutes ago, mikebv said: I actually think the racing is at least as good as I have ever seen in the 49 years I have watched it.. The difference between all the riders on show is a lot less than it used to be in the days of '2 point reserves v World Champions', (particularly given that in every one of those races pre fixed gates, the 'World Champions' invariably chose the best gate positions!).... Machinery too is more of a similar standard than ever with even the 'lesser' riders using the best equipment and tuners. With only maybe those lads who ride in the top division in Poland having 'special kit' they wheel out on Sundays or Saturday nights in FIM events.. The biggest difference between 'then and now' is simply the lack of crowd, which means a lack of atmosphere.. No one will be surprised to see the racing at Cardiff will probably be nowhere near as good as an 'average' meeting at the NSS. How could it be? The NSS is a fantastic race track... However a full night of entertainment, on and off track, in front of 40,000 fans rather than just 1,000, will have everyone on the edge of their seats regardless of the fans' subjective opinion of the racing...... Even the 'worst track', delivering the 'worst racing' can be successful if 5,000 a night are there and the 'event' delivers the overall entertainment level that they want from their 'night out'... To digress a moment Craig Cook has said in this weeks Speedway Star he has invested "well over £100,000" in this season's racing... Yes, you read it correct. That's ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND pounds.....!! And if Craig is doing this, to compete with him (and to keep those machinery standards similar that so assists close racing), many, many others (even non GP riders) must be spending incredible amounts too.... THAT I would suggest is a far, far bigger problem for British Speedway than the current state of some tracks... Interesting that you think racing is as good as you've seen. This, despite what is a complete lack of star names, thus meaning riders of equal ability? It is worrying that Cook had to spend £100,000, money that speedway in this country cannot afford. The fascination with points limits is to allow more equal teams. So, if only for domestic racing, how about equalling things out even further by setting an amount riders can spend on engine tuning? Edited July 20, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 hours ago, BWitcher said: That is absolutely nowhere near the real problem. You and the others like you are so clueless it's untrue. It's evident that if you do watch the sport you do not actually see what is going on! People do not go to watch the sport. Why is that? It's because it's boring and they are not remotely interested in it. So, tell me the real problem in ONE sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Stoke Potter said: You and the others like you are so clueless it's untrue. It's evident that if you do watch the sport you do not actually see what is going on! People do not go to watch the sport. Why is that? It's because it's boring and they are not remotely interested in it. So, tell me the real problem in ONE sentence. When you are asking for the answer to the problem in ONE sentence I think that says everything we need to know about who is actually 'clueless'. The racing at Cardiff is at best average every year... yet 40,000 will descend upon it again this year. The racing at Belle Vue is of the top drawer, as good as even Hyde Road ever used to produce (some would say better). Yet even last year on their preferred race nights they weren't packing the crowds in... this year they've gone down the pan. You forget, racing from years gone by is readily available to view online. The racing was nothing to write home about. The sport has made many mistakes over the years, costing themselves fans in the process. As fans exit the sport the atmosphere levels drop. Good meetings become average ones, average ones become poor ones and so on. So continue to spout your nonsense, alas for you, there is absolutely no evidence to back up what you claim. Edited to add: Just to further refute your nonsensical claim, attendances have been falling for decades, not a recent trait. It just makes more of a difference the lower the crowds go. Edited July 20, 2018 by BWitcher 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, mikebv said: I actually think the racing is at least as good as I have ever seen in the 49 years I have watched it.. The difference between all the riders on show is a lot less than it used to be in the days of '2 point reserves v World Champions', (particularly given that in every one of those races pre fixed gates, the 'World Champions' invariably chose the best gate positions!).... Machinery too is more of a similar standard than ever with even the 'lesser' riders using the best equipment and tuners. With only maybe those lads who ride in the top division in Poland having 'special kit' they wheel out on Sundays or Saturday nights in FIM events.. The biggest difference between 'then and now' is simply the lack of crowd, which means a lack of atmosphere.. No one will be surprised to see the racing at Cardiff will probably be nowhere near as good as an 'average' meeting at the NSS. How could it be? The NSS is a fantastic race track... However a full night of entertainment, on and off track, in front of 40,000 fans rather than just 1,000, will have everyone on the edge of their seats regardless of the fans' subjective opinion of the racing...... Even the 'worst track', delivering the 'worst racing' can be successful if 5,000 a night are there and the 'event' delivers the overall entertainment level that they want from their 'night out'... To digress a moment Craig Cook has said in this weeks Speedway Star he has invested "well over £100,000" in this season's racing... Yes, you read it correct. That's ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND pounds.....!! And if Craig is doing this, to compete with him (and to keep those machinery standards similar that so assists close racing), many, many others (even non GP riders) must be spending incredible amounts too.... THAT I would suggest is a far, far bigger problem for British Speedway than the current state of some tracks... Would like to know how much Cook invested to compete in British Speedway to get to his level.! probably would be shocked! .While riders deserve all the can get ,the money is running out.Harris another one complaining about money.What are Cook and Harris earning when they are riding in Uk,quite a lot IMO . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 23 minutes ago, BWitcher said: When you are asking for the answer to the problem in ONE sentence I think that says everything we need to know about who is actually 'clueless'. The racing at Cardiff is at best average every year... yet 40,000 will descend upon it again this year. The racing at Belle Vue is of the top drawer, as good as even Hyde Road ever used to produce (some would say better). Yet even last year on their preferred race nights they weren't packing the crowds in... this year they've gone down the pan. You forget, racing from years gone by is readily available to view online. The racing was nothing to write home about. The sport has made many mistakes over the years, costing themselves fans in the process. As fans exit the sport the atmosphere levels drop. Good meetings become average ones, average ones become poor ones and so on. So continue to spout your nonsense, alas for you, there is absolutely no evidence to back up what you claim. Edited to add: Just to further refute your nonsensical claim, attendances have been falling for decades, not a recent trait. It just makes more of a difference the lower the crowds go. Put Cardiff on every week, would you get 40K going? (Answer the question) The tracks have never been particularly good, exacerbated by the fact that modern day bikes don't go well around British circuits. The evidence you ask for is the quality of the racing, i.e. very little passing. There is so much competition for the entertainment pound these days when compared to say the 70's, that people will not turn out for something that amounts to a nothing show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argos Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 If you seen C Harris article in this weeks S. Star ask yourself if he retired from Speedway what could he do? I would suggest not a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk127 Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Trees said: Is it the case that every club is on the breadline so they HAVE to look after themselves or go out of business? We would only know that if you know every limited company running each track and then download even the abbreviated accounts from Companies House to assess who is in negative net worth territory or a substantially reduced net worth based on prior year trading. I suspect that for many clubs the numbers are not adding up and hence cost controls need to be put in place to make it an even playing field if the sport is to continue at many venues. Yes you will always try and protect your assets but given the many variables that impact on the sport from rider costs, sponsorship, numbers through the gates, machinery upkeep, stadium rental etc. it is a mystery as to why any sane business person would invest almost to the point of having a blank cheque book. I doubt we have seen the last of troubled and stretched clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, BWitcher said: When you are asking for the answer to the problem in ONE sentence I think that says everything we need to know about who is actually 'clueless'. The racing at Cardiff is at best average every year... yet 40,000 will descend upon it again this year. The racing at Belle Vue is of the top drawer, as good as even Hyde Road ever used to produce (some would say better). Yet even last year on their preferred race nights they weren't packing the crowds in... this year they've gone down the pan. You forget, racing from years gone by is readily available to view online. The racing was nothing to write home about. The sport has made many mistakes over the years, costing themselves fans in the process. As fans exit the sport the atmosphere levels drop. Good meetings become average ones, average ones become poor ones and so on. So continue to spout your nonsense, alas for you, there is absolutely no evidence to back up what you claim. Edited to add: Just to further refute your nonsensical claim, attendances have been falling for decades, not a recent trait. It just makes more of a difference the lower the crowds go. Spot on... Losing 400 regular fans from 3000 isn't really noticeable... Lose 400 from 1200 and their absence is obvious and stark. Giving an irrefutable barometer of a fading entity... And when any business has that reputation it really is a huge uphill struggle to turn this view around.. Each track has its own 'tipping point' I would suggest whereby the atmosphere drops to a level that then becomes sterile and mundane enough for those still attending to consider "is it is really worth coming again next week"? The vicious circle of low crowds/poor atmosphere, poor atmosphere/even lower crowds, kicks in... And not too many clubs it seems have managed to break this vicious cycle sadly, with it appears almost all currently going through it to varying degrees.. As we know. It doesn't matter how 'awesome' a Speedway meeting is if only 'one man and his dog' show up to watch it... Edited July 20, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, moxey63 said: Interesting that you think racing is as good as you've seen. This, despite what is a complete lack of star names, thus meaning riders of equal ability? It is worrying that Cook had to spend £100,000, money that speedway in this country cannot afford. The fascination with points limits is to allow more equal teams. So, if only for domestic racing, how about equalling things out even further by setting an amount riders can spend on engine tuning? I've said before, set a £10k max payroll for the home and away matches.. 1000 fans paying £15 will cover it ex vat and leave a couple of Grand to help pay for other costs.. No superstars probably but then again, paying the top riders £3k a night (£6k for the home and away match) means the first 480 fans (including the VAT) pay just for him!! (Madness! And more than £3k a night can be paid out to some riders if various rumours are correct!).. Re the racing quality.. When I got back into the Sport circa 1992 I often went watching a lot of National League racing (Today's Championship). The reason was I found it better racing than the 'Elite League' as there was less disparity between the best riders on show and the least capable.. Conversely, I never missed a '4 Team Tournament' in the EL as every race was contested by the three heat leaders and best second string from each team. Hence the racing was regularly top drawer.. In short. Any level of racing will deliver great Speedway as long as the four riders in the race are of a similar calibre.. Nowadays the name of the rider hardly effects the crowd level therefore it surely must be time to set a maximum payroll spend and develop a format that brings four lads of a reasonably similar talent level to the tapes in each race..? Without breaking the bank.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 41 minutes ago, mikebv said: In short. Any level of racing will deliver great Speedway as long as the four riders in the race are of a similar calibre.. Not if the track is fundamentally flawed and pretty much impossible to pass on. The World Champ states that certain British Tracks are like that and says that is essentially the reason for the prevalence of jumping the start. Source: Doyle's interview prior to the start of the last GP. Nice bit of evidence for your lot there. Somebody says get high level sponsors in. They won't touch Speedway because nobody goes to it, it has no mass appeal. Despite the best efforts of those that run it, the sport still has national TV coverage, despite that crowds are still going down. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 The whole package is poor value for money. At swindon last night I handed over £20 inc prog, to stand in a dump of a stadium, to watch 15 processional races on a dust bowl of a track. It's not rocket science is it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted July 20, 2018 Report Share Posted July 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Argos said: If you seen C Harris article in this weeks S. Star ask yourself if he retired from Speedway what could he do? I would suggest not a lot Financial advisor? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 9 hours ago, cityrebel said: The whole package is poor value for money. At swindon last night I handed over £20 inc prog, to stand in a dump of a stadium, to watch 15 processional races on a dust bowl of a track. It's not rocket science is it. And of the many, many thousands who have walked away over the last five years - would tell the same story of disillusionment. It rings true mostly for me. I know a proportion of elderly fans have passed away but not that many! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainB Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 15 hours ago, Fromafar said: Would like to know how much Cook invested to compete in British Speedway to get to his level.! probably would be shocked! .While riders deserve all the can get ,the money is running out.Harris another one complaining about money.What are Cook and Harris earning when they are riding in Uk,quite a lot IMO . Perhaps Cook and Harris can't make it pay because they are crap? Big fishes in a small pond and in Harris's case a small fish in a small pond... don't get me wrong as a Cov fan I think Bomber is a legend but he has clearly been delusional in the last 5 or 6 years thinking he's world class and talking the talk without ever walking the walk. Similar for Cook... if he was as good as he thought he was he'd be riding regularly in Poland or even Sweden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, iainb said: Perhaps Cook and Harris can't make it pay because they are crap? Big fishes in a small pond and in Harris's case a small fish in a small pond... don't get me wrong as a Cov fan I think Bomber is a legend but he has clearly been delusional in the last 5 or 6 years thinking he's world class and talking the talk without ever walking the walk. Similar for Cook... if he was as good as he thought he was he'd be riding regularly in Poland or even Sweden Sadly I have to agree with you there mostly, as neither of them have been able to really cut it - not that I regard them as crap ( except perhaps poor at world class level ) But as for Bomber's ridiculous point of view -delusional is about right on how much he is worth in the UK. He seems to believe he is worth about 250k profit here. Most of the doubling up - top riders - have never glanced at the terraces in the last 2 -3 years to see how many are now interested in watching them chase each other ( after the gating competition is over ). I agree with all the dangers of the job, but it has always been a choice they make to chase glory and fortune. At the moment hardly any rider is worth more than 75k profit / nett income ( inc. from both teams ) in the UK - based on the interest of the general public. If there are many more who agree with Bomber they have no chance of acquiring that lifestyle unless and until they crack Poland and Sweden and are "in demand" outside of the UK. Edited July 21, 2018 by waytogo28 correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenga Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 15 hours ago, Argos said: If you seen C Harris article in this weeks S. Star ask yourself if he retired from Speedway what could he do? I would suggest not a lot and thats what i would do when i retired from a good paying sport, maybe spend more time in the shed trying to find out mechanical problems from times gone by . a bit of child minding, other than that , as you say not a lot ! something tells me he will not be tuning engines unless he gets a job in the garden centre . but seriously . he is still young enough to retrain himself for a far easier job IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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