Kings Lynn v Leicester Lions 4/7/2018

[ouch]

4 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

My point is quite simple, some are saying Buster should have called it off when only the ref has that power.

So you mean if Buster had asked the ref to call the meeting off as medical covered wouldn’t be available until after 10.00, the ref would have refused? 

If not I don’t understand your point. 

[Star Lady]

8 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

There was a meeting in the late nineties against Ipswich which didn't finish until nearly midnight IIRC!

Was that the one where Shane Parker helped out with the tractor driving

Also recall one from the Waggy days, think it was a pairs meeting, that didn't start till nearly 10, then the riders pulled all sorts of stunts, tape breaking, 2 min exc etc.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Star Lady
added words

[g13webb]

No doubt it was in Buster's interest  to continue,   so we can assume he made a case of that point to the ref.     Whereas had he wanted the meeting to end he could have made the point of the missing Medic/ Ambulance, and the Ref would have had no option but to abandon the meeting... 

The Ref can only make decisions on what he is told,    but when you consider he deemed Kerr responsible for the HT 6 accident and excluded him,   I wonder just what was in the Ref's mind  all night... 

[semion]

I think a ref can be 'advised'  or certain matters or take advise with regard to track conditions  etc, but as has been said It is only the ref who declares It Off.   Though I would think the decision would be made hand in hand with the home promoter.

[Star Lady]

The home promoter before giving advise to the ref would take into account

1 ETA of ambulance return (which can change without warning)

2 weather( will wait longer if warm rather than wet)

3 profit from food & drink outlet (will diminish as fans leave)

4 availability of dates for re-arrangement

5 curfew if any

6 fan satisfaction (not sure about this one and will never please them all anyway)

• even after all that the final decision is the referees. Going by a comment from g13webb above re Kerr's exclusion I'm not convinced he would have  taken advice anyway

 

[Theboss]

5 minutes ago, Star Lady said:

The home promoter before giving advise to the ref would take into account

1 ETA of ambulance return (which can change without warning)

2 weather( will wait longer if warm rather than wet)

3 profit from food & drink outlet (will diminish as fans leave)

4 availability of dates for re-arrangement

5 curfew if any

6 fan satisfaction (not sure about this one and will never please them all anyway)

• even after all that the final decision is the referees. Going by a comment from g13webb above re Kerr's exclusion I'm not convinced he would have  taken advice anyway

 

Some good points SL but I can assure that in situations like this the promoter would advise the referee of the situation and what he feels is best for club and supporters.... And if they did not agree with this there is the option of going over their head.

[Star Lady]

17 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Some good points SL but I can assure that in situations like this the promoter would advise the referee of the situation and what he feels is best for club and supporters.... And if they did not agree with this there is the option of going over their head.

Didn't realise promoters could go over refs head but that would also take time I assume. 

Last  night was one of those nights that get thrown up occasionally, when what can go wrong does. I think most of the complaining is a result of the way fans have been treated over the last few seasons and not solely based on last nights events. The goodwill of fans will only stretch so far.

easy for me to see both sides (I'm Libran anyway) as I wasn't there

[Daniel Smith]

Home promotion DOES have a say on continuation or postponements of meetings.

5.3 The staging Promotion is responsible for the payment of SCB invoices, fines, insurance premiums, BSPA meeting fees and prize (points) money. Additionally, in the event that a Meeting is postponed (after 09:00 or other such time as mutually agreed) or abandoned, they must reimburse the travel expenses incurred by the visiting team for the re-staging. 

_________________________

 14.6. The main duties of the MEETING STEWARD (appointed by the SCB) are: a) consultation with the Staging Promoter, Meeting Coordinator and Meeting Referee on all matters relating to the staging of a Meeting and especially at any time when the staging or continuation of a Meeting is in doubt. 

_____________________

14.9.2 During the Meeting (referee) shall: a) consult at any time during a Meeting (including before the commencement of the 1st heat), with the Clerk of Course, Team Managers and Team Captains, if there is a doubt whether the Meeting can commence or continue. (NB. Not applicable when a Meeting Steward is appointed). In the event a meeting is abandoned no further racing, practicing or use of the track is permitted.  

___________________________

While the referee (meeting steward) is the only person able to abandon the meeting it is with the agreement of both parties and home promotion. 

At no point is the home promoters hands tied but I will say British Speedway isn't in a great place. Buster and Dale probably felt they between a rock and a hard place of what to do financially. Saying that, when the stadium was mostly empty at 10pm they should have called it off. Now they've been hit in the worst possible way with another injured rider and more likely more people to never return. 

Yes of course, everyone will and should give their best wishes to all injured rider's but there are far bigger consequences for the sport & King's Lynn for the future.

If an ambulance can't arrive for 3hrs and the track paramedics have to leave the writing is on the wall for the meeting.

I would like to say I hope lessons can be learned but it's the same old story at King's Lynn. 

I will say again, Buster and Dale would have felt like they were between a rock and a hard place, the club failed badly under 

14.7.1 A PROMOTER j) take all necessary steps to safeguard, at all times, the interests and welfare of all riders, Officials and Spectators during a Meeting, being responsible to maintain good order throughout the Stadium and its environs and in the event of a serious disturbance to notify the SCB immediately of plans to avoid a repeat.

Unfortunately, every season these things are repeated over and over again.

N.B. with regards to me not giving best wishes, I have given these personally to all the rider's through other means.

[waytogo28]

16 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

14.7.1 A PROMOTER j) take all necessary steps to safeguard, at all times, the interests and welfare of all riders, Officials and Spectators during a Meeting, being responsible to maintain good order throughout the Stadium and its environs and in the event of a serious disturbance to notify the SCB immediately of plans to avoid a repeat.

 

I am stunned that such a section in a rule exists " take all necessary steps to safeguard, at all times, the interests and welfare of all riders, Officials and Spectators during a Meeting," it has been almost totally ignored over the last few years at KLS, just as it was yesterday evening. Very little thought or concern was given to the 1,000+ people who had paid to come in. That rule was not penned by Buster I feel sure. Nigel Pearson perhaps?

[sneezy]

I was at the meeting as a neutral, we had been to the coast for the day and decided to catch the meeting on the way home.

Firstly can I send my best wishes to both riders, it was obvious to all how serious it was .I am sure everybody expected a long delay, and most were accepting of this.

We had a bit of a drive home and it was turning cold, also as we had been out all day, reluctantly at 9.30p.m we decided to start making our way out to the car, at roughly 9.45p.m, we heard the engines restart and the announcer say, the ambulance was on its way back and the meeting would restart shortly.

Assuming the ambulance was only coming from Queen Elizabeth Hospital, we assumed by the time we had made our way back to the grandstand, it would have arrived and the meeting would continue, so we went back, only for the engines to stop again. So we waited, and eventually racing started again at 10.20 p.m, how I wish we had gone home.

I think everybody had lost heart in the meeting even before the second accident, the track conditions had changed,and the riders must also have been cold, Speedway fans must be the most patient of any sports fans in the country but I personally think the decent thing to have done would have been to call the meeting off well before the restart.

I don't condone the heckling at all but think Mr Chapman should have risen above it and continued with his explanation of circumstances to all the fans that had stopped. He had the microphone after all, so he had the upper hand.

I sincerely hope both riders make speedy and full recoveries, if nothing else I am sure that is something we can all agree on!

 

[waytogo28]

47 minutes ago, Star Lady said:

The goodwill of fans will only stretch so far.

The proof of that pudding will be judged by future turnstile takings.

[IainB]

11 hours ago, mrss said:

Tonight was just a one off

I've been to a number of these "one offs" over the years

4 hours ago, Star Lady said:

Much as I dislike the way the club treat fans nowadays, if as Danny Connor says fans were informed, I fail to see what more the club could have done. 

 

The fans were informed but not nearly as much as they should have been in a delay of over 2 hours! We live in an information age, it's not acceptable to just stick music on anymore, it's easier than ever to get and give information (perhaps not give information at KL with the ridiculous situation with the mic!)

4 hours ago, Dodger Blue said:

My moan is (and I was there) is, there is obviously only one reason to keep everyone waiting until that late at night to restart a meeting that imo should have been called of way before then - and that has nothing to do with public entertainment, it was all about trying to get to heat 10 even if it was midnight so that no money would be lost on a rerun meeting!!

A cynical person may say it was more to do with getting heat 6 over and done with but I wait to be proven wrong by that

3 hours ago, Bagpuss said:

One of those nights that speedway throws up occasionally, can understand the frustration of people who were there but don't really see what else could have been done. 

They could have had 2 medical teams available... like many, many tracks have done throughout the years I've been watching Speedway. Motorsports are dangerous and this situation is always possible, as a promoter you've got to weigh up the potential disgruntlement of fans against the cost of a 2nd medical unit. I wonder if this would have happened at a televised meeting?

3 hours ago, mrss said:

I really don't know why people are knocking Buster over last nights events. It wasn't his fault there were falls on the track. Fans were kept informed about delays with ambulances. If people hadn't shouted him down when he was on the mic they would have known what was happening. 

who decided to only have one medical team? the mic was a joke

[IainB]

So I decided to go to this against my better judgement having attended the KOC match back in May, I thought surely this won't take as long to run as that did  (2hrs 10mins for 15 races)... how about 2hrs 45mins for 6 races. But it was a nice day and I spent the late afternoon having a look around KL old town, which is very nice if you've never been, quite a surprise.

Then the Speedway... The 2 minutes go on for heat 1... and is then cancelled, somebody's trying to play the sun delay card (not sure if it was the riders or the ref?), fortunately that was ignored until it became a real problem.... here we go I thought, it's going to be another one of those nights.

Then we had the first accident, I'm not going to get into that as obviously no one wants that to happen and we all obviously wish both the riders involved the very best but... guess what? This is Speedway, incidents like this are always going to happen sooner or later, what you can do as a Speedway promotion is to have a workable plan for when this does happen.

The obvious plan is to have 2 ambulances/medical teams in attendance, problem solved, the match can continue. To have one ambulance/medical team in attendance is risky, to then call an ambulance and expect it to turn up on demand in this day and age is, unfortunately, unrealistic. The ambulance has to go off to hospital, so what do you do then? Well they could have had a backup arranged maybe? Maybe have arranged for a private ambulance firm to be "on call" rather than in attendance. Call the meeting off, knowing that by the time that the ambulance had actually left the track it was going to be unrealistic for the match to be concluded... 

No what we got was 2 hours of music only to be interspersed for the first hour with announcements of we can't tell you anything and we can't interview the riders. In today's day and age this is totally unacceptable. As I mentioned above we live in an information age, people crave information, it's easier than ever to give it and get it (unless you're a Rye House fan!). 

I'm by nature a very cynical man these days as far as Speedway is concerned and part of me is thinking they were going to do anything to get heat 6 out of the way, I hope I'm proved wrong on this, but at best I only half expect a fiver reduction on production of last nights ticket.

Well full re-admission or a fiver off, that's me and KL Speedway through! I shall not be returning again!

 

[Orbiter]

So what happens after this farce is it a full refund?

[Bald Bloke]

It used to be if the meeting was called off before the start of HT 6 I think. Don't know if that is still the case. Don't know about a refund, used to be get in free at another meeting with your ticket .

Edited July 5, 2018 by Bald Bloke

[Star Lady]

 

14 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

It used to be if the meeting was called off before the start of HT 6 I think. Don't know if that is still the case. Don't know about a refund, used to be get in free at another meeting with your ticket .

Not sure but wasn't it changed a couple of years ago to a sort of sliding scale. Before heat 6 readmission, after that £5 off reducing to £1 or along those lines. Off course I could have dreamt it.

[Kickitov]

Last nights event were unfortunate, i'm not sure you can really blame anyone and thoughts should be with the injured riders.

My concern was the track! It was very grippy, it was perfectly safe but offered no entertainment at all. The first 3 home meetings this season were great spectacles with good racing, plenty of passing on a slicker track. The last 2 home meetings (1 and a half) were the complete opposite on grippy surfaces. When Sargeant (no disrespect) is beating Iversen because their is only one line and when you see a rider of Hans Andersen's quality half a lap behind the leader it does make you question why the track is prepared in that way. The modern speedway bike is so difficult to ride under these circumstances (although admittedly Lambert and Bjerre didn't  have any issues). 

[waytogo28]

38 minutes ago, Star Lady said:

 

Not sure but wasn't it changed a couple of years ago to a sort of sliding scale. Before heat 6 readmission, after that £5 off reducing to £1 or along those lines. Off course I could have dreamt it.

Oh NO you didn't but I can't find it in print. Can anyone else? For example the promotion?

[Star Lady]

maybe this might clear up some misunderstandings.

Quote

8.2 The minimum Personnel and Facilities required at a Speedway Meeting (including an Amateur Meeting) are: one (1) Medical Officer one (1) Ambulance with a Driver and Attendant one (1) Medical Treatment Facility four (4) First Aid Staff The minimum Personnel and Facilities required at a Training Session (but not one that also includes a Meeting of any sort) is one (1) Medical Treatment Facility plus 2 First Aid Staff. 8.2.1 The Medical Treatment facility may be a 2 nd fully equipped Ambulance or a designated Medical Room, with good access, is well lit, dry, windproof and heated with curtains or similar at all windows, has a chair/couch or similar, a supply of basic medical equipment and facilities for hand washing with hot and cold water. NB. If this is a 2 nd Ambulance appropriately qualified persons must be available to supervise a casualty

I cannot find anything about readmission, admittedly I did speed read the regs cos there's a lot of them

[Dodger Blue]

33 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

Oh NO you didn't but I can't find it in print. Can anyone else? For example the promotion?

Isnt it in the programme - £1 off for every uncompleted heat up to heat 10, so as I see it £4 off with ticket ... WOW!!