4thbender Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Dodger Blue said: But the away matches HAVE taken place ..... me thinks you are tying yourself in knots!! Consider this: Regardless of the teams involved or the competition, if two unequal groups are vying for the spoils, the one with the least involvement is always going to have an unfair advantage. This is due to the fact that whatever the results - good or bad - to work out performance averages the scores of the team with fewer results will be divisible by 4, whereas the scores of the team with the greater number of results will be divisible by 6. Hence the skewed 2.25 v 2.167. Take it from me - a maths genious! The ONLY fair way of making comparisons is to look at actual points difference which cannot be skewed regardless of how many matches each team has taken part in. In this case, one team has a points difference of +39 and the other +10. Which team deserves to qualify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyb Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 What did your promoter say then. But if Sheffield had gained one more point away then they would have qualified, and they had one more chance than Peterborough. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graz gp Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 Boring. Move on.utt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodles Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 Oh dear 4thbender hasn't really thought this through has he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 1 hour ago, 4thbender said: This is precisely the point that proves my argument: the team taking part in fewer matches is always going to have an unfair mathematical advantage. Teams should be judged on the results of matches that HAVE taken place and NOT the averages skewed by the number of matches that HAVEN'T taken place! Agree - the average match points take into account the 2 away defeats for Sheffield that HAVE taken place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndbendbeerhut Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 So Peterborough picked .... Rock And Sheffield picked .... scissors Or have I got this wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear_Bottom Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 Compare Sheffield's best 2 Home matches and best 2 Away matches to P'bro? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tosh1218 Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 I’m sure with the northern bias in clubs the Bspa always wanted two southern and two northern sides in the semis .If in Sheffields group take out either Scunthorpe or Newcastle’s results in the group to make it a three team then you would have Example A 2 Sheffield home wins = 6 pts 1 Sheffield away win = 4pts Total 10 pts so it would be the same tally as Peterborough 2.25 PST per meeting so it would go on PST difference and I’m sure Sheffield’s would be higher so I can see why ther aggrieved and in real terms the Shield should have been two groups one of 5 teams and the other with 6 teams with the top two teams qualifying. This would have given teams more fixtures each as this season unless your successful clubs fixture lists are well down on past seasons only my opinion folks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornaby48 Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 All this could have been avoided by having one group of 5 teams, one group of 6 teams with top 2 in each group going into semi finals ____simples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, Tosh1218 said: I’m sure with the northern bias in clubs the Bspa always wanted two southern and two northern sides in the semis .If in Sheffields group take out either Scunthorpe or Newcastle’s results in the group to make it a three team then you would have Example A 2 Sheffield home wins = 6 pts 1 Sheffield away win = 4pts Total 10 pts so it would be the same tally as Peterborough 2.25 PST per meeting so it would go on PST difference and I’m sure Sheffield’s would be higher so I can see why ther aggrieved and in real terms the Shield should have been two groups one of 5 teams and the other with 6 teams with the top two teams qualifying. This would have given teams more fixtures each as this season unless your successful clubs fixture lists are well down on past seasons only my opinion folks And if you put Scunthorpe in the Peterborough group and look at the result the Panthers got at EWR they couldve had the chance to score more points All pure conjecture in both scenarios which leaves us back with the actual situation and using the actual rules which result in Boro qualifying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, Thornaby48 said: All this could have been avoided by having one group of 5 teams, one group of 6 teams with top 2 in each group going into semi finals ____simples. What if the team in 3rd in 1 group had a better record that the team in 2nd in the other?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornaby48 Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 With all due respect that is irrelevant and is only complicating a simple solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthegearbutnaeidea Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 best thread in the championship section i’ve seen in a while I have to say! Sheff fan realising his team isn’t anywhere near as good as he thought and unhappy that they was knocked out of a competition even though everything was followed by the rules... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 27 minutes ago, Thornaby48 said: With all due respect that is irrelevant and is only complicating a simple solution A bit like not accepting a simple principle of average points per match?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thbender Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 2 hours ago, crazyb said: What did your promoter say then. But if Sheffield had gained one more point away then they would have qualified, and they had one more chance than Peterborough. Our promoter hasn't said anything... yet. I would also point out that as well as Sheffield having had one more chance for an away point, Peterborough have had one fewer chance of dropping a home point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, 4thbender said: Our promoter hasn't said anything... yet. I would also point out that as well as Sheffield having had one more chance for an away point, Peterborough have had one fewer chance of dropping a home point. Had there been another side in the group and that side managed to make Peterborough drop those home points it makes it very likely THAT team wouldve been second in the group AND therefore in with a chance of being better placed runners up than Sheffield too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 I think this thread is a wind up. Look at it this way. Rider A scores 3,2,1,3,3 and averages 9.60 from 1 match. Rider B scores 3, 2,1,3,2 and 3,1,3,1,2 and averages 8.40 from 2 matches. Has rider B done better because he has won more races? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thbender Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said: Had there been another side in the group and that side managed to make Peterborough drop those home points it makes it very likely THAT team wouldve been second in the group AND therefore in with a chance of being better placed runners up than Sheffield too And had they done so I would have applauded their achievements and wished them well in the semis.... but of course they didn't. Which leaves the present conundrum of a team having been undeservedly awarded a place in the semis whilst the team with a better overall performance is excluded on a mathematical technicality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New era Panthers Posted June 18, 2018 Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 34 minutes ago, 4thbender said: And had they done so I would have applauded their achievements and wished them well in the semis.... but of course they didn't. Which leaves the present conundrum of a team having been undeservedly awarded a place in the semis whilst the team with a better overall performance is excluded on a mathematical technicality. Oh dear I believe you are digging yourself a bigger hole to JCB proportions. Time to let it go and next year you may do better . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thbender Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, New era Panthers said: Oh dear I believe you are digging yourself a bigger hole to JCB proportions. Time to let it go and next year you may do better . Yeah. Everyone suggests I ought to let it go but no-one seems able to actually give a logical response to my assertion that Sheffield have the better results and should be in the semis. Anyone with a basic understanding of mathematics can see that basing decisions on average league-points when the teams have differing numbers of fixtures is always going to give an unfair advantage to the team with fewer fixtures. Personally I would never be happy with my team qualifying for a semi-final if their performance didn't merit them being there. There's no joy in winning on a technicality. Just ask the guy who climbed two-thirds of the way up Everest but claimed that since he'd done it in half the time, his achievement was better than Edmund Hillary. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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