BSPA Upset the Poles

[tyler42]

13 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

I'm quite happy with my wording and note that both criticisms come from two people who I have 'crossed swords' with in the past. Perhaps we should be debating what is a serious problem rather than make playground-style attempts at point-scoring?

Yes the BSPA may have upset Harris as well. I could have written a paragraph or extended sentence as thread title but I follow a basic principle - 'Keep the headline brief'. The rest can be included in the main body. 

I know nothing of Harris' position regarding this nor was it speculated upon in the story. I therefore left this out since there were far wider matters at issue than an individual. 

Whatever the theoretical position of the 'slot system' Britain is already in breach by using Wednesdays and what I considered the most significant part of the story  was Poland claiming that our lower tier also only was allocated the Monday and Wednesday slots.

This is all semantics. Poland are drawing another line in the sand to claim Friday to Sunday running, excepting international weekends, and no doubt in the long term would love to see those either under their (via One Sport?) control or bundled away on nights they don't want. This is not a case of 'teething problems' of a new, acceptable system. Sweden and Denmark have long worked with a one or two night a week allocation. Britain's needs are different due principally to stadium access and ownership and a need for weekly speedway from March to October, not fortnightly for a dozen weeks or so mid-summer. We've lost that and we've lost our way. Our successful years were based on weekends.

We've virtually lost these crucial weekends and this latest Polish muscle-flexing will make that problem far worse. The present PL supporters may be happy to watch 'stars' racing midweek but what we need to re-grow is to recapture the weekends and if that relies on lesser names then fine - I really, really doubt whether the new supporters who we need to attract would even notice their absence. We need to be selling a good night's racing on the right night and regularly. This 'new order' and its 'teething' pains are in direct conflict with this. 

Is that now clear enough for you? I've written enough professionally over the years to accept critique by those who are qualified to so obviously hope to also meet your demanding standards, 

Anyway, apart from having to deal with such inanities I'd suggest that Hawk127 has it exactly right. British speedway is fighting for its future and despite the limitations of the BSPA it doesn't deserve to be treated with the contempt it is now receiving. We have given a huge amount to the sport over 90 years - until recently being the only serious place for riders to earn a full-time living for one or to race at the highest levels of team racing.

Yes those days are over for now but we deserve a bit more than simply being told to "Go sit in the corner we've given you and don't dare to speak". I'd be a lot happier if I could trust the business controlling Polish speedway. I don't. 

A rebuild here is required but I do fear that the scale of rebuild will be too much for many 'supporters' to accept. 

 

 

But why was Harris given permission from the authorities to sign for a polish club in the first place?. If he signed for Glasgow after signing for his polish club, Then the bspa should have said to both him and Glasgow, that they would not allow him permission to ride for Glasgow, as he had already signed a contract to ride for the polish club on a Sunday.

As we know Polish teams run a squad system and as such Harris would not have been guaranteed a meeting every Sunday in Poland. Hence signing for Glasgow was a no brainer for him.

That was until the polish club wanted to use him last week!! So summing up, I think it is a bit unfair to say the polish club are the bad guys in all of this.

[Halifaxtiger]

29 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

But why was Harris given permission from the authorities to sign for a polish club in the first place?. If he signed for Glasgow after signing for his polish club, Then the bspa should have said to both him and Glasgow, that they would not allow him permission to ride for Glasgow, as he had already signed a contract to ride for the polish club on a Sunday.

As we know Polish teams run a squad system and as such Harris would not have been guaranteed a meeting every Sunday in Poland. Hence signing for Glasgow was a no brainer for him.

That was until the polish club wanted to use him last week!! So summing up, I think it is a bit unfair to say the polish club are the bad guys in all of this.

I think you're pretty much spot on. We have all seen how arrogant the Poles can be but here surely they are in the right if the international calendar gives them priority on Sundays. Which league it is, to me, makes no odds.

Harris (and Glasgow) should have considered that there was a small chance (given the squad system and that Sunday is Glasgow's second choice race day) that there maybe a clash and accepted that if there was he should ride in Poland.

Its all very well for British Speedway and its fans to be aggrieved when the Polish authorities throw their weight (and money) around, but this simply gives them the opportunity to say that we are no better.

 

[Halifaxtiger]

11 hours ago, Fromafar said:

To me it confirms that we say goodbye to riders who are not committed to GB,even if the weakens Teams by bringing in youngsters and riders who are gaurenteed to turn up every week,it's p#ssing a lot of fans off IMO .Guests and R/r should only be for injured riders.

I wonder how many riders we would have left if we insisted that British Speedway had priority at all times. For Belle Vue, Cook, Fricke, Tungate, Drodz and Bewley all have Polish contracts. The chance of a clash is very small, but you're looking for an absolute guarantee.

Practicality suggests that we have to allow them to ride elsewhere and that there is an agreement regarding who has preference in the event of a clash. If we want the Poles to co-operate we simply have to honour our side of the bargain.

[Whisperer]

Subscribing to the international fixture priority list was done to protect British clubs, it's not that long ago that riders were going awol on a Thursday to race in Poland on a Sunday citing their Polish contracts that they signed first as the priority. Riders were being called to "official" practice sessions, Sponsors launches and parties, club PR events and Civic receptions over British Speedway, the International Speedway league gave priority on set days which allowed other countries to retain their riders without breaching their Polish contracts.

It was never intended to be the absolute solution and couldn't be because the countries who get their fixtures logged first take priority on non priority days and we are nearly always last to submit. I hope that makes sense but as an example if both a Polish Club and a British club logged a fixture on a Tuesday (Sweden's priority) and a rider was faced with a fixture clash between the two countries then the first logged fixture would take priority.

Factor in the extended National and International priority then rain offs in every country and you will see it's a nightmare for every league so it's hardly surprising there are disagreements from time to time.

As for the comments about who should allow what, the free movement of European workers gives riders the right to earn their living within the EU whether self employed or not which is another reason why the Federations had to try and work together.

[RobMcCaffery]

5 hours ago, Whisperer said:

Subscribing to the international fixture priority list was done to protect British clubs, it's not that long ago that riders were going awol on a Thursday to race in Poland on a Sunday citing their Polish contracts that they signed first as the priority. Riders were being called to "official" practice sessions, Sponsors launches and parties, club PR events and Civic receptions over British Speedway, the International Speedway league gave priority on set days which allowed other countries to retain their riders without breaching their Polish contracts.

It was never intended to be the absolute solution and couldn't be because the countries who get their fixtures logged first take priority on non priority days and we are nearly always last to submit. I hope that makes sense but as an example if both a Polish Club and a British club logged a fixture on a Tuesday (Sweden's priority) and a rider was faced with a fixture clash between the two countries then the first logged fixture would take priority.

Factor in the extended National and International priority then rain offs in every country and you will see it's a nightmare for every league so it's hardly surprising there are disagreements from time to time.

As for the comments about who should allow what, the free movement of European workers gives riders the right to earn their living within the EU whether self employed or not which is another reason why the Federations had to try and work together.

Thank you and yes, I can see that rationale for having an agreement. However I am still very concerned that the lack of priority for home federation fixtures seems now lost, or at least ifg you're British. 

As most will know, most of my speedway viewing over the years has been in the second tier. I have always enjoyed the friendlier attitude of those involved and supporting and learned a long time ago that a good race between two reserves can be as good as a race between two superstars. Racing is racing. I am naturally dismayed to see international politics entering this sector and the thought of Glasgow having to race a derby with Edinburgh without their British number one because of the demands of a Polish club that hadn't used the rider concerned for weeks appalled me. 

To then have the Poles effectively saying that we have no right to run on days other than the allocated slot days added fuel to that flame. Considering the deal on 'slots' was partly a response to Polish abuse of the previous status quo is also very ironic.

I was one of the hundreds who stood on the terraces at Hackney wondering whether the Poles would release Zenon Plech to ride for the Hawks that week. Yes, systems change but having money and large crowds does not entitle the Poles to severely damage the sport in other countries.

My initial reaction is that the slot deal should have applied only to the senior divisions with the argument being that the lower leagues should have domestic riders only policy or face the risk of crippling rider absences. 

Yes, EU employment law allows freedom of employment for its citizens but it does not allow constant absence from the workplace due to having a better offer elsewhere. 

[Halifaxtiger]

5 hours ago, RobMcCaffery said:

Thank you and yes, I can see that rationale for having an agreement. However I am still very concerned that the lack of priority for home federation fixtures seems now lost, or at least ifg you're British. 

As most will know, most of my speedway viewing over the years has been in the second tier. I have always enjoyed the friendlier attitude of those involved and supporting and learned a long time ago that a good race between two reserves can be as good as a race between two superstars. Racing is racing. I am naturally dismayed to see international politics entering this sector and the thought of Glasgow having to race a derby with Edinburgh without their British number one because of the demands of a Polish club that hadn't used the rider concerned for weeks appalled me. 

To then have the Poles effectively saying that we have no right to run on days other than the allocated slot days added fuel to that flame. Considering the deal on 'slots' was partly a response to Polish abuse of the previous status quo is also very ironic.

I was one of the hundreds who stood on the terraces at Hackney wondering whether the Poles would release Zenon Plech to ride for the Hawks that week. Yes, systems change but having money and large crowds does not entitle the Poles to severely damage the sport in other countries.

My initial reaction is that the slot deal should have applied only to the senior divisions with the argument being that the lower leagues should have domestic riders only policy or face the risk of crippling rider absences. 

Yes, EU employment law allows freedom of employment for its citizens but it does not allow constant absence from the workplace due to having a better offer elsewhere. 

The thing is as Whisperer says that rule was brought in not for the benefit of the Poles but to protect speedway in this country. We can't then simply break it. 

As for referring to the 'demands of a  Polish club', Harris signed contracts both with them and Glasgow in the full knowledge that there could be a clash. Glasgow knew it too. Why shouldn't the Polish team insist that he rides for them given that he has a contract and the agreement between speedway countries states that they have precedence ? 

I really do think you are pointing fingers in the wrong direction here. It is Glasgow, Harris and the BSPA that are at fault, not his Polish team. If this was the other way around - for example, Damian Drozdz riding for a Polish club on a Monday when he had a commitment for Belle Vue - we'd be screaming blue murder. 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Halifaxtiger

[Aces51]

On 5/30/2018 at 3:11 PM, Grachan said:

Pretty clear from that. Britain has priority on a Thursday but not on a Wednesday.

And that the three Polish league have priority on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Effectively we have agreed to accept the crumbs.

I certainly hadn't realised that the agreement gives whichever country has priority on a day priority for all of its "professional" leagues over all of the professional leagues in other countries. 

That leaves those Championship teams who have no choice but to race on nights other than Monday or Thursday in a potentially calamitous position.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Aces51

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

I (wrongly it seems from this thread) had assumed that the priorities agreed internationally only applied to the top division in each country

[Aces51]

2 minutes ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

I (wrongly it seems from this thread) had assumed that the priorities agreed internationally only applied to the top division in each country

I'd just edited my post above to say the same.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Aces51

[NeilWatson]

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/65665/no_cache/1/

Page 64 et seq details the ISLB weekly slot system

[stevehone]

so going back a short time, Jack Holder (having a contract with a Polish club) missing Peterborough meetings on a Sunday wasn't really anything that could be stopped if Poland have priority on that day

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

19 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/65665/no_cache/1/

Page 64 et seq details the ISLB weekly slot system

So absolutely no provision agreed for British Championship League meetings.....

[f-s-p]

16 minutes ago, stevehone said:

so going back a short time, Jack Holder (having a contract with a Polish club) missing Peterborough meetings on a Sunday wasn't really anything that could be stopped if Poland have priority on that day

This FIM controlled rule on priority days came to force for this season. Last year's saga was about something else.

[Aces51]

25 minutes ago, NeilWatson said:

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/65665/no_cache/1/

Page 64 et seq details the ISLB weekly slot system

Thank you.

That clarifies that the position is not as simple as the calendar suggests. Interesting that the Swedish second division has priority, after our PL, on Thursday, after our PL but it seems that our CL has no priority at all. Probably, because of the problems of the multi race nights but nonetheless they cannot claim priority on any night.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Aces51

[HenryW]

2 hours ago, Aces51 said:

Thank you.

That clarifies that the position is not as simple as the calendar suggests. Interesting that the Swedish second division has priority, after our PL, on Thursday, after our PL but it seems that our CL has no priority at all. Probably, because of the problems of the multi race nights but nonetheless they cannot claim priority on any night.

The rules are certainly clear that priority doesn't go to all Polish leagues on all the Polish days. I wonder why they did such a poor job of making that clear in the calendar!

To me it looks like section 2 of the clash of dates rule has maybe been written to be helpful to UK Championship teams. As you said, the multiple race nights  makes it difficult to give priority anywhere. But in the scanario where no priority day exists, giving priority to the team that the rider has raced for more, it obviously favours a league with more meetings.

For example, you would expect most clashes between Championship meetings and the Danish league matches on Fridays to go in favour of the Championship team.

[Hamish McRaker]

Just supposing the BSPA were to decide to no longer participate in the international leagues schedule. 

Supposing it then requires any rider signed to a UK team, to agree to a contract which requires their priority availability all season, seven days per week except for international events - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday except Tuesdays?

Or to include just Mondays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays? - how many riders would go for that?

And would the numbers prepared to sign, be sufficient to form enough teams to enable a credible league to be run?

[Fromafar]

On 31 May 2018 at 5:11 AM, Halifaxtiger said:

I wonder how many riders we would have left if we insisted that British Speedway had priority at all times. For Belle Vue, Cook, Fricke, Tungate, Drodz and Bewley all have Polish contracts. The chance of a clash is very small, but you're looking for an absolute guarantee.

Practicality suggests that we have to allow them to ride elsewhere and that there is an agreement regarding who has preference in the event of a clash. If we want the Poles to co-operate we simply have to honour our side of the bargain.

If we allow them to ride elsewhere as by agreement,we should stop GB clubs refusing fixtures because their riders are riding elsewhere then! It is just messing up GB fixtures.Its all abit of a joke now.IMO.

[Big Al]

If you  take somebody like Richard Lawson for example - a good old "bread and butter" British rider, the sort who you would think essential to the UK leagues. According to SS, he has a place with Opole, a team in the Polish third tier.

If Richard was asked to commit to a UK contract requiring him to effectively guarantee priority to UK fixtures in the event of any clash with an Opole match for which they also required him, would he do so? Depends on how important, financially and/or otherwise, a squad place with Opole is for him when set against being fully available for his UK teams especially if, as someone has said on here, the UK hoists the Union Jack and builds its league calendar around Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays.

Tempting though it is to take that route, I think it would create a serious rider shortage and a league with much fewer clubs at somewhere between current CL and NL level. The efforts and case for saving Brandon would become pointless, the NSS would probably become redundant for speedway. Is that what we want?

The other way is to negotiate with other nations and keep trying to find an agreeable, acceptable solution.

The problem is, though, you have to have you own house in order before you can do that. And the UK still hasn't done that. 

[MattK]

12 hours ago, Hamish McRaker said:

Just supposing the BSPA were to decide to no longer participate in the international leagues schedule. 

Supposing it then requires any rider signed to a UK team, to agree to a contract which requires their priority availability all season, seven days per week except for international events - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday - how many would sign it?

Or from Monday to Saturday except Tuesdays?

Or to include just Mondays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays? - how many riders would go for that?

And would the numbers prepared to sign, be sufficient to form enough teams to enable a credible league to be run?

I think you'd lose half of the Premiership and a third of the Championship riders with the above suggestion. I don't think your various options would make much difference as there are only a handful of Swedes in the leagues who would benefit from a Tuesday exception and lots of Danes who would be looking for a Wednesday exception, which means only your final option might appeal to more than a handful of riders.

You also have two other issues, firstly the problem of Poland slowly expanding onto Friday and secondly your definition of "international event". Presumably this would include GPs and the qualifiers? What about U21s both individual and team events? SEC and various Euro individual, team and pairs events? Domestic championships which many also now include qualifiers? This should cover off many of the Saturdays across the season.

Therefore, if you want to demand priority and not alienate the majority of riders you are limited to running on just Monday and Thursday.

[Aces51]

I don't think the number of riders choosing Poland would be anything like the numbers some are suggesting. For many of the current riders, who race mainly for Polish league 1 and 2 teams, a guaranteed 30 plus meetings in the UK in one big league would be more attractive than being part of a Polish league 1 squad with no guarantee of being a regular pick.

They may not like having their opportunity to race abroad curtailed but I think many would accept it.

The UK has got to find a way to operate that initially makes the sport here sustainable and then able to grow. Staying as we are is not an option.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Aces51