orion Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 14 hours ago, mikebv said: Apologies Trigg, I stand corrected..... Only SIXTEEN Guests used... (Perfectly acceptable)… 16 you sure ? I do wonder if it was 16 how that compares to golden era when people said there was less guests ...I have a feeling 16 in speedway terms is not very many over a season and I also suspect that Swindon went ever lower than Belle Vue .this season So as I said not that many and perfectly acceptable for speedway in terms of what has gone before . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 48 minutes ago, orion said: 16 you sure ? I do wonder if it was 16 how that compares to golden era when people said there was less guests ...I have a feeling 16 in speedway terms is not very many over a season and I also suspect that Swindon went ever lower than Belle Vue .this season So as I said not that many and perfectly acceptable for speedway in terms of what has gone before . Priceless... Sometimes British Speedway fans do actually get the Sport they deserve... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 Right I went to Ipswich tonight my interest was to see Drew Kemp make his home debut this being my first visit of 2018. The presentation was OK the racing was enjoyable and the match was kept alive by a mini Ipswich fight back. The promotions do need to find away of putting more meat on the bone for the money paid at the turnstiles above and beyond 15 heats. There needs to be more crowd interaction this requires having the right presenting team and the willingness of the riders and management to partake. I still maintain my points on guesting and doubling up. Those 6 Ipswich riders are only hired hands you can tell that the bind between riders and crowd is not what it was. Its very difficult to build up rivalry between teams when tomorrow night the visitors number one is in your team and next week he riders for you at home. I came away not bothered by a home loss in the old days i would have been really pi##ed off by a loss at home just because I went to see speedway heats and not a team event. But I saw enough to believe that something is still there to rescue. Will I return? Yes I will maybe not until next season who knows but when I fancy a night at speedway. what I really want is a professionally run sport with a team or riders who only rise for your team so I can get the buzz of following my team again once that's back then yes I would be there every week. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 24, 2018 Report Share Posted August 24, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Spl77 said: Right I went to Ipswich tonight my interest was to see Drew Kemp make his home debut this being my first visit of 2018. The presentation was OK the racing was enjoyable and the match was kept alive by a mini Ipswich fight back. The promotions do need to find away of putting more meat on the bone for the money paid at the turnstiles above and beyond 15 heats. There needs to be more crowd interaction this requires having the right presenting team and the willingness of the riders and management to partake. I still maintain my points on guesting and doubling up. Those 6 Ipswich riders are only hired hands you can tell that the bind between riders and crowd is not what it was. Its very difficult to build up rivalry between teams when tomorrow night the visitors number one is in your team and next week he riders for you at home. I came away not bothered by a home loss in the old days i would have been really pi##ed off by a loss at home just because I went to see speedway heats and not a team event. But I saw enough to believe that something is still there to rescue. Will I return? Yes I will maybe not until next season who knows but when I fancy a night at speedway. what I really want is a professionally run sport with a team or riders who only rise for your team so I can get the buzz of following my team again once that's back then yes I would be there every week. The actual spectacle of the Sport is, for me, as good/bad/similar (delete as applicable), as it ever has been... It's just that (in this country), they find it all most impossible to fit it into a bona fide, credible team concept... The actual raw product of Red, Blue, White and Yellow going around a Speedway track four times is still good to watch... They just need a way to harness that raw product and utilise it to engage a crowd level to visit, that the product and spectacle deserves... Pretty simple equation is, if they can find an operating model that engages better crowds, it will prosper.. If they cannot, it won't... Edited August 24, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted August 24, 2018 Report Share Posted August 24, 2018 I never have an issue with guests replacing injured riders as I cannot think of an affordable alternative save for R/R. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) On 8/22/2018 at 6:37 PM, moxey63 said: All true. Your post really resolves why the sport is where it is now? I think each story offers more than enough reasons why crowds have plummeted. It all sounds quirky for a time, but forty years is a long time ago and I guess people just want a genuine sport with genuine rules in 2018. We should learn from the fascinating facts you've provided and ban such things ever occurring again. It is not ok to say daft things happened 40 years ago... and so it's ok they happen now. It really shows we have learned nothing from past mistakes and will still accept anything. The modern age will not accept such shoddiness for the cash they're handing over to watch what would enable you a more professional show elsewhere in the sporting world. Bewley, Cook and Worrall, in my ideal world, would have to choose what league to race in and not have the best of both world's. Something that has to be done to save speedway and reignite it as a sport that once lay at death's door. I have said before that guests are a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century. It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. Problem is we don't live in an ideal world (be that yours, mine or anyone else's). Doubling up has got out of hand, but I only have an issue with that because of the loss of riders fixture clashes create and the necessity to then have facilities all the time. Fixed race nights has been a disaster for attendances, but there's no question that the farcical number of guests and rider replacement used in 2017 has changed somewhat. On 8/22/2018 at 6:43 PM, shippy22 said: Doubling up was only on a small scale, and usually the riders concerned, belonged to the top division club, and were loaned out to the second division team. Nowadays the Premier League teams are more or less a "Championship Select" team, plus 1 or 2 full time Premier riders. That's true to a point. Referring to Belle Vue in 1980, Maxfield, Carr, Richardson & Wilcock all rode in about half of Belle Vue's fixtures. I actually don't think that speedway fans at Premiership level would have a problem with their riders competing with other clubs if it where not for the fact that there were clashes. I have never heard a Belle Vue fan, for example, complain that Dan Bewley rides for Workington (or a Workington fan complain that he rides for Belle Vue). In addition, the problems with absences this season seems to me to be at least as much with them riding abroad. On 8/22/2018 at 7:38 PM, Spl77 said: So you're telling me I don't know why myself and my group of friends no longer go? Unbelievable another head stuck in the sand its always been that way chap! Not at all. I am simply saying that we have always had - more or less - the situation you described, so I do not understand why that would affect attendance now. If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. Edited August 25, 2018 by Halifaxtiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 19 hours ago, ouch said: I never have an issue with guests replacing injured riders as I cannot think of an affordable alternative save for R/R. Nutshell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said: I have said before that guests are a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century. It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. Problem is we don't live in an ideal world (be that yours, mine or anyone else's). Doubling up has got out of hand, but I only have an issue with that because of the loss of riders fixture clashes create and the necessity to then have facilities all the time. Fixed race nights has been a disaster for attendances, but there's no question that the farcical number of guests and rider replacement used in 2017 has changed somewhat. That's true to a point. Referring to Belle Vue in 1980, Maxfield, Carr, Richardson & Wilcock all rode in about half of Belle Vue's fixtures. I actually don't think that speedway fans at Premiership level would have a problem with their riders competing with other clubs if it where not for the fact that there were clashes. I have never heard a Belle Vue fan, for example, complain that Dan Bewley rides for Workington (or a Workington fan complain that he rides for Belle Vue). In addition, the problems with absences this season seems to me to be at least as much with them riding abroad. Not at all. I am simply saying that we have always had - more or less - the situation you described, so I do not understand why that would affect attendance now. If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. During the days when Promoters had teams in both leagues (Oxford/White City/Peterborough/Eastbourne, Hackney/Rye House, King's Lynn/Boston etc etc) there was always a system whereby riders tended to double up. Oxford enjoyed the opportunities of blooding the likes of Malcolm Ballard, Gordon Kennett, John Davis etc whilst still appearing for their Division Two/National League clubs. It allowed a natural progression from one league to another and I believe the system generally operated well. Not sure, personally, how the modern system of doubling up operates, however, as there are those better placed than myself to make a comparison. Edited August 25, 2018 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 It used to be an opportunity for up-and-coming riders to ride at a higher level, to progress their experience Now it's used purely to add to riders' income - there can be no case for a top level rider (purely as an example, Chris Harris) to double down to the second tier I have no problem with an up-and-coming Brit in the second tier being given opportunities in the top tier - but not on a permanent (season-long) basis 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisperer Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, steve roberts said: During the days when Promoters had teams in both leagues (Oxford/White City/Peterborough/Eastbourne, Hackney/Rye House, King's Lynn/Boston etc etc) there was always a system whereby riders tended to double up. Oxford enjoyed the opportunities of blooding the likes of Malcolm Ballard, Gordon Kennett, John Davis etc whilst still appearing for their Division Two/National League clubs. It allowed a natural progression from one league to another and I believe the system generally operated well. Not sure, personally, how the modern system of doubling up operates, however, as there are those better placed than myself to make a comparison. The modern system was initiated to replicate the era you refer to and encourage up and coming riders to chance their arm and development in the top league. There was a huge gulf in skill between the middle and top tiers where 10 point riders from the middle tier were struggling to get ones and twos in the top league. Initially those riders had to choose between one league or the other and were given a two season comfort by allowing them to return to the middle tier on their last middle tier average if the top tier didn't work out. The middle tier became more attractive with more meetings and by comparison easier races not withstanding that a few daft rsed Promoters started paying silly money to tempt them back. With insufficient riders doubling up with converted averages came in and eventually doubling down followed. What was a development initiative became a bidding scramble so like many other best intended initiatives it was abused by; average manipulation, cheque book speedway, self interest and sheer avarice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said: I have said before that guests are a necessary evil and I'd maintain that now. There's no question in my mind that if Somerset turned up at Belle Vue without Jason Doyle but had Niels Kristian Iverson as a replacement the attendance might not be affected much. If they turned up with Alfie Bowtell (no disrespect to the lad) it might, and we have seen comments reflecting that many times. Meetings would become less competitive and the sport held to ransom by injury far more than it is now and that's why we have had guests for over half a century. It might be an alien concept to newcomers, but then as has been said many times you simply cannot judge one sport by another. To do so is not just ridiculous, its bizarre. Problem is we don't live in an ideal world If I am honest, I also do not understand why a doubling up (or loaned) rider could not be seen as a member of your team - I have certainly never heard anyone say that before, much less use it as a reason for giving up on speedway. The suggestion that Mildenhall fans will walk away in their hundreds because Drew Kemp is now riding for Ipswich or that Ipswich fans will object violently to his presence in their team because he rides for Mildenhall is nonsense. The issue is that doubling up is way out of control. At one point this season 6 of the 7 Ipswich riders rode for another UK team. When it was introduced back in the early 2000s then know as the floater Ipswich had 2 riders who rode in the lower league sharing one team place. That is not to bad and a similar system was used in the 80s when Carl Blackbird rode for Ipswich and Mildenhall having a couple of riders sharing one spot probably wouldn't do much harm. In terms of guests the sport had the boom time of the 70s and 80s to sort that out and at least one forward thinking promotion at the time tried get the BSPA to work on a solution. The the sport in this country had been forward thinking then or have the will now then you could over come the guest Issue Poland seems to manage. Just supposing for one second that the sport was invited to apply for lottery money or a major investor wanted to get involved in relaunched the leagues with a large sum of money. Chapman and Godfrey turn up and are asked to explain the basic way the leagues work and the answer is this We have two main leagues with 16 clubs between them. A rider can sign for a team in both leagues and if he does then he can more or less ride for every team in either league under our World leading 'guest system' to allow cover for injuries or if a rider missing from a contracted fixture because he is riding in Europe because they pay more. It's quite possible that a rider could score points as a guest for another team that could put his contracted team out of the league title fight. It's also possible that in a 2 legged final a rider could ride for both teams. More over if we find halfway through the season that due to riders riding for their contracted clubs on that clubs agreed race night we can force those clubs to cancel fixtures so that their contracted riders can quest for another team on the same night. These cancelled fixtures could also mean that those clubs miss the play offs as they won't have completed their fixtures by the agreed cut of date. At that point the investor finishes the meeting with thank you I'll be in touch. Mind you they could always pitch that in dragons den now that would make great TV! Edited August 25, 2018 by Spl77 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 We have gone into this before ..you could take examples in any sport and make it look stupid if you wanted to but does it really stop major investors or stop fans stop going ? lets take f1 ..major investor turns up and asks what the rules are . he's told that the best drivers get cars that are faster than worst drivers in slower cars and not only that they start in front of them meaning there is about 5 passes per race over 72 laps ...no tv station or fans are going to want that are they ? on wait a min there 100,0000 fans who have just turn up .look at the people who used to go on about the old one off world final and look at the crowds it got ..but then you look at the rules on how you got there and they were stupid but you still had 80k turn up at Wembley . As I said since we got to fixed race night this years and as the stats show they had made a massive different to amount of guests that are used and in some cases clubs had there best stats in 25 years, but have the fans come back because of that ? when the answer is no and that shows that people are not as worried about that than is made out In a ideal world we would have no guests or rr and no double up riders ..but after all this time no one has come up with a better idea that would work without having a massive effect on gate receipts. They made a effort this year to cut down on guests and to make sure that teams had more chance of putting the same one to seven out each week ..and what has happened ? people moaning wanted to go back and having there own race nights back and even more guests . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Spl77 said: The issue is that doubling up is way out of control. At one point this season 6 of the 7 Ipswich riders rode for another UK team. When it was introduced back in the early 2000s then know as the floater Ipswich had 2 riders who rode in the lower league sharing one team place. That is not to bad and a similar system was used in the 80s when Carl Blackbird rode for Ipswich and Mildenhall having a couple of riders sharing one spot probably wouldn't do much harm. In terms of guests the sport had the boom time of the 70s and 80s to sort that out and at least one forward thinking promotion at the time tried get the BSPA to work on a solution. The the sport in this country had been forward thinking then or have the will now then you could over come the guest Issue Poland seems to manage. Just supposing for one second that the sport was invited to apply for lottery money or a major investor wanted to get involved in relaunched the leagues with a large sum of money. Chapman and Godfrey turn up and are asked to explain the basic way the leagues work and the answer is this We have two main leagues with 16 clubs between them. A rider can sign for a team in both leagues and if he does then he can more or less ride for every team in either league under our World leading 'guest system' to allow cover for injuries or if a rider missing from a contracted fixture because he is riding in Europe because they pay more. It's quite possible that a rider could score points as a guest for another team that could put his contracted team out of the league title fight. It's also possible that in a 2 legged final a rider could ride for both teams. More over if we find halfway through the season that due to riders riding for their contracted clubs on that clubs agreed race night we can force those clubs to cancel fixtures so that their contracted riders can quest for another team on the same night. These cancelled fixtures could also mean that those clubs miss the play offs as they won't have completed their fixtures by the agreed cut of date. At that point the investor finishes the meeting with thank you I'll be in touch. Mind you they could always pitch that in dragons den now that would make great TV! I wasn't aware of it back then, but the leniency of allowing more doubling up in the early 2000s might have been one reason I started having serious questions about team speedway. This and the double point tac rule was the exact period I began dreading Monday night, speedway night, arriving. The sport had gone daft. I recall Carl Stonehewer being determined to ride for Belle Vue and if I correctly recall, even paid the difference himself (it may have been to parent Workington for the difference in the loan fee) so he could turn out for both teams. Must have benefitted him financially. When the floodgates opened back then, was there a rider shortage or was it just promoters chose easy pickings and ready-made riders to keep fans happy? Another thing, the sport and its rule-makers just want to make it complicated. Take the scoring system in the league table. It is ridiculous. So many points for this, another so many for that. And yet, work out this week's table in the old-fashioned way, two points for a win etc, and there is no difference. In fact, Leicester wouldn't be as far adrift at the bottom as they now are. Edited August 25, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, moxey63 said: Another thing, the sport and its rule-makers just want to make it complicated. Take the scoring system in the league table. It is ridiculous. So many points for this, another so many for that. And yet, work out this week's table in the old-fashioned way, two points for a win etc, and there is no difference. In fact, Leicester wouldn't be as far adrift at the bottom as they now are. Go back in time ? you surprised me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cheese Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 The points system ridiculous? I would say it's one of the BSPA's better ideas in recent years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 36 minutes ago, orion said: Go back in time ? you surprised me One day soon, we're going to have to go back in time... to recall what speedway was in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, The Cheese said: The points system ridiculous? I would say it's one of the BSPA's better ideas in recent years They've fooled you then? They mean nothing, the table practically stays the same with or without them making it complicated. Edited August 25, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 3 hours ago, moxey63 said: One day soon, we're going to have to go back in time... to recall what speedway was in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 1 hour ago, orion said: Another 2 or 3 hundred of these paying to get in at every track really would make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 26, 2018 Report Share Posted August 26, 2018 (edited) On Saturday, August 25, 2018 at 8:39 AM, Spl77 said: The issue is that doubling up is way out of control. At one point this season 6 of the 7 Ipswich riders rode for another UK team. When it was introduced back in the early 2000s then know as the floater Ipswich had 2 riders who rode in the lower league sharing one team place. That is not to bad and a similar system was used in the 80s when Carl Blackbird rode for Ipswich and Mildenhall having a couple of riders sharing one spot probably wouldn't do much harm. In terms of guests the sport had the boom time of the 70s and 80s to sort that out and at least one forward thinking promotion at the time tried get the BSPA to work on a solution. The the sport in this country had been forward thinking then or have the will now then you could over come the guest Issue Poland seems to manage. Just supposing for one second that the sport was invited to apply for lottery money or a major investor wanted to get involved in relaunched the leagues with a large sum of money. Chapman and Godfrey turn up and are asked to explain the basic way the leagues work and the answer is this We have two main leagues with 16 clubs between them. A rider can sign for a team in both leagues and if he does then he can more or less ride for every team in either league under our World leading 'guest system' to allow cover for injuries or if a rider missing from a contracted fixture because he is riding in Europe because they pay more. It's quite possible that a rider could score points as a guest for another team that could put his contracted team out of the league title fight. It's also possible that in a 2 legged final a rider could ride for both teams. More over if we find halfway through the season that due to riders riding for their contracted clubs on that clubs agreed race night we can force those clubs to cancel fixtures so that their contracted riders can quest for another team on the same night. These cancelled fixtures could also mean that those clubs miss the play offs as they won't have completed their fixtures by the agreed cut of date. At that point the investor finishes the meeting with thank you I'll be in touch. Mind you they could always pitch that in dragons den now that would make great TV! Spot on... Imagine Poland running the same system? The fans wouldnt go, the media wouldn't be interested and the Sponsors wouldn't want to be associated with such a 'Mickey Mouse' ran 'Team Sport'... (Unless your Zelona Gora maybe).. Guests are not a "necessary evil" as the Sport is ran in other countries without them... Doubling up isn't an issue if fixtures are planned in correctly as other countries have doubling up but avoid clashes... It is just 'lazy' administration... Administration that any independent body or person wouldn't allow.... No NKI? Then the next two in the averages should be allowed to replace all his rides (if the manager wants to do that)... Signing Jason Doyle shouldn't give you access to every other rider in the League, and provide you with a tactical advantage to pick Guests on a 'horses for courses' basis, yet in British Speedway it does.. Simply, you cannot take it seriously as a 'Team Sport', (in Britain), and that can never be a good starting point with which to attract Sponsors, Media and Fans... Which is a shame, as the product itself does attract decent crowds when it has credibilty, as is shown in Sweden, Poland and over here at Cardiff.. Edited August 26, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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