The continuing decline of Speedway

[Eduds1]

1 hour ago, orion said:

Why are premiership football grounds still rammed when 4th play 5th orr even 20th

So if went back to old league season every match would count yea ? so if a 5th place team rode the 4th place team and they were 20 points behind the leaders what would that count for ? looking forward to this answer .

As has been explained a million times much more reason to watch more matches in a play off season than a normal one 

 

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I await the influx of new fans then. I can't keep living in the 1970s. Just glad I watched speedway when it really didn't need sideshows to keep fans attending. I suppose Stuart Hall and It's A KnockOut  is more apt for current speedway though, if I can revert back to that wonderful decade once more. 

...now you're talking! Bring on the 'Joker' ...oh sorry speedway's been there!

[orion]

35 minutes ago, Eduds1 said:

 

? I explained 20 times why football  is not the same '..if a 4th play a 5th in the top league in football they would playing  for a champions league spot ..a bottom could still playing millions of pounds in prize money .hence why they don't need play offs ..if you had posted the whole post rather than a line out of context it would have  explain it to you then 

Edited August 17, 2018 by orion

[Hawk127]

Why not try something different if the play offs are such a big attraction. All qualifying meetings are £7.50 adults and £1 for children. Top six teams in the play offs charge £20 per adult £2 per child. For the final charge £30 per adult and £5 per child. See how popular they are with the fans on cost versus importance of meeting. Make it something special in the final and possibly an event rather than just a meeting and see whether it is a good as those who believe it is.

[steve roberts]

11 minutes ago, orion said:

? I explained 20 times why football  is not the same '..if a 4th play a 5th in the top league in football they would playing  for a champions league spot ..a bottom could still playing millions of pounds in prize money .hence why they don't need play offs ..if you had posted the whole post rather that a line out of context it would have  explain it to you then 

...glad that we cleared that one up. Play-Offs in speedway and football don't follow the same criteria.

[steve roberts]

1 minute ago, Hawk127 said:

Why not try something different if the play offs are such a big attraction. All qualifying meetings are £7.50 adults and £1 for children. Top six teams in the play offs charge £20 per adult £2 per child. For the final charge £30 per adult and £5 per child. See how popular they are with the fans on cost versus importance of meeting. Make it something special in the final and possibly an event rather than just a meeting and see whether it is a good as those who believe it is.

...sounds reasonable enough to me!

[orion]

4 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...glad that we cleared that one up. Play-Offs in speedway and football don't follow the same criteria.

Yea I said that 100 times to you ..and so has everyone else . glad you finally understand 

[orion]

7 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

Why not try something different if the play offs are such a big attraction. All qualifying meetings are £7.50 adults and £1 for children. Top six teams in the play offs charge £20 per adult £2 per child. For the final charge £30 per adult and £5 per child. See how popular they are with the fans on cost versus importance of meeting. Make it something special in the final and possibly an event rather than just a meeting and see whether it is a good as those who believe it is.

Getting to the play offs and the income it brings in are just in important ..so if you charge £ 7 .50 per match and then 20 pond for say two matches or none in some  cases most clubs would go bust in about 10 weeks as  the surplus would be 30 to 40 k 

[Hawk127]

17 minutes ago, orion said:

Getting to the play offs and the income it brings in are just in important ..so if you charge £ 7 .50 per match and then 20 pond for say two matches or none in some  cases most clubs would go bust in about 10 weeks as  the surplus would be 30 to 40 k 

What serious calculation or business model have you run through to conclude that clubs will go bust? I think you have not thought it through and are shooting from the hip. Come up with your financial forecasts on a club by club basis to prove th3 point and you might be taken seriously. If clubs are able to pull in a bigger fan base over the qualifying period and it hits the spot in value for money more people would attend and almost replicate the Polish scenario. The Polish fans pay nothing like the U.K. fan base have to cough up but as the cream rises to the top you pay more but everyone starts off with a chance.  The trouble is no one wants to try anything new and yet you continually criticise those who refer back to age when the sport was popular and pulling in decent crowds unlike today when it is not a secret that is best kept, it simply has changed to the point where no one is interested and the price point is wrong for those attending and the  riders  believe that are better then they really are with the promoters operating on a self interest basis. If it were free it would be too much to pay but could happen with the right sponsorship but no one in this sport is capable of achieving that.

[orion]

13 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

What serious calculation or business model have you run through to conclude that clubs will go bust? I think you have not thought it through and are shooting from the hip. Come up with your financial forecasts on a club by club basis to prove th3 point and you might be taken seriously. If clubs are able to pull in a bigger fan base over the qualifying period and it hits the spot in value for money more people would attend and almost replicate the Polish scenario. The Polish fans pay nothing like the U.K. fan base have to cough up but as the cream rises to the top you pay more but everyone starts off with a chance.  The trouble is no one wants to try anything new and yet you continually criticise those who refer back to age when the sport was popular and pulling in decent crowds unlike today when it is not a secret that is best kept, it simply has changed to the point where no one is interested and the price point is wrong for those attending and the  riders  believe that are better then they really are with the promoters operating on a self interest basis. If it were free it would be too much to pay but could happen with the right sponsorship but no one in this sport is capable of achieving that.

What calculation or Business model did you used ? lets say leics this year charged £7 .50 match and then come bottom and have no play offs you reckon they would not go bust ..you reckon they would make  the season on that ? lets say they get 800 paying fans at £15 over 12 matches that is 144 k  you then half that to 77k if you take £7.50  .you then you maybe add on some more as at £7.50 you should get some more fans. you still are to lose between 30k to 50  k ..you don't really have to shoot from the hip to work it out 

No point in trying something  new just for the sake of it and even more so  if it makes no business sense . 

[Hawk127]

4 minutes ago, orion said:

What calculation or Business model did you used ? lets say leics this year charged £7 .50 match and then come bottom and have no play offs you reckon they would not go bust ..you reckon they would make  the season on that ? lets say they get 800 paying fans at £15 over 12 matches that is 144 k  you then half that to 77k if you take £7.50  .you then you maybe add on some more as at £7.50 you should get some more fans. you still are to lose between 30k to 50  k ..you don't really have to shoot from the hip to work it out 

No point in trying something  new just for the sake of it and even more so  if it makes no business sense . 

You talk solely about gate money. What about sponsorship? What about the bigger picture? Forget it you still have not divulged a decent forecast or businessmodel and amateur business people are not worth debating with. 

[Whisperer]

Can one of you pm me when you're done so I can pick up the thread later please?

[orion]

16 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

 You talk solely about gate money. What about sponsorship? What about the bigger picture? Forget it you still have not divulged a decent forecast or businessmodel and amateur business people are not worth debating with. 

What about sponsorship ..why would the sponsorship  be anymore than any other season ? for some unknown reason a sponsor who has  not come along this year is going to come along under this format and make up the short fall . the bottom line you still going lose 50k min if you come bottom .

If you have got  such a great business model and you can show  how they would up the short fall I am ready to hear it ..the stage is all yours ? rather than I am not  going to debate because I cant answer your question 

Edited August 17, 2018 by orion

[Midland Red]

Why has the reason for attending changed so much - it was always the situation that (enter night applicable) was Speedway night, irrespective of the team's league position, or the opposition, it was to get our weekly fill and see "our team" - yes, it was good to win (happiness is 40-38) but it didn't really matter, or affect next week's attendance - probably only the two weeks annual holidays caused missing a home meeting

Here I've just read that fans wouldn't attend a meeting if it only involved 4th and 5th in a non-play off league - does no one go to watch and enjoy Speedway racing anymore?  Probably that's been lost due to lack of continuity of fixtures, lack of consistency of team makeup, doubling up/down

The "good old days" WERE good - there don't seem to be many good days in 2018 - that's why some of us do look back to seek how to improve things

But there does seem to be a different attitude from spectators, only winning matters now

[Hawk127]

7 minutes ago, orion said:

What about sponsorship ..why would the sponsorship  be anymore than any other season ? for some unknown reason a sponsor who has  not come along this year is going to come along under this format and make up the short fall . the bottom line you still going lose 50k min if you come bottom .

If you have got  such a great business model and you can show  how they would up the short fall I am ready to hear it ..the stage is all yours ? rather than I am not  going to debate because I cant answer your question 

If you believe that every club and every rider relies solely on gate money you are sadly deluded. None of the clubs have orbwould exist without sponsors and riders could not afford to participate without sponsorship. In the case of younger riders starting out family money keeps them in the sport. If you have ever written a business plan and supported it with financial forecasts including p and l, balance sheet and cash flow you can demonstrate how it could be a viable proposition. Your idea of doing it on the back of a fag packet without any business acumen says it all. Run a business and you might have some idea. If you do run a business then I would be surprised if it has any longevity given your comments. 

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, orion said:

? I explained 20 times why football  is not the same '..if a 4th play a 5th in the top league in football they would playing  for a champions league spot ..a bottom could still playing millions of pounds in prize money .hence why they don't need play offs ..if you had posted the whole post rather than a line out of context it would have  explain it to you then 

 

2 hours ago, orion said:

Yea I said that 100 times to you ..and so has everyone else . glad you finally understand 

...Blimey more bites than an average day fishing!

Glad that you've accepted football (despite your earlier protestations) as an example however I'm still waiting your views on how speedway may well move forward? I've given examples of mine now over to you before we all wither with exhaustion and typing frenzy with expectation!

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

57 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

If you believe that every club and every rider relies solely on gate money you are sadly deluded. None of the clubs have orbwould exist without sponsors and riders could not afford to participate without sponsorship. In the case of younger riders starting out family money keeps them in the sport. If you have ever written a business plan and supported it with financial forecasts including p and l, balance sheet and cash flow you can demonstrate how it could be a viable proposition. Your idea of doing it on the back of a fag packet without any business acumen says it all. Run a business and you might have some idea. If you do run a business then I would be surprised if it has any longevity given your comments. 

I never said that that clubs relies on gate money alone ? when did I ever say that ?  are take it slow with you ..if you lose  50 % on gate money how do you plan to the  make up  short fall up ? it's a simple question  to a great business man like yourself .  all the other income is going to be the same unless you can explain why it would change  otherwise .

The bottom line is you come up with a plan (I never saw a business plan with it ) and you  can't back it up or how it would work or  even  answer a simple maths  question ...with business acumen like that I would not let you run a bath let alone a business ..

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by orion

[theblueboy]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:46 PM, moxey63 said:

If Swindon and speedway is that bad, and yet you pump up Cricket... why did you choose the re-arranged Swindon match tonight over the Cricket?

I agree with what you say about speedway, by he way. 

In answer to your question:-

1. I have barely missed a Swindon speedway fixture, except a couple of mid season holidays, since I gave up Thursday night cricket 12 years ago to return to speedway.

2. I am an Essex fan. The tickets last week were purchased for my dad for his birthday as he as Middlesex fan. Although I work in Bristol I have no affinity with Gloucester, although, I enjoy cricket full stop and will watch any team e.g I went to Guildford earlier this season to watch Surrey v Zummerset. 

3. I worked from home last Thursday. The thought of having to leave at 3.30 to travel 40 miles get in to Bristol for a 18.30 start was not very appealing tbh.

I have played cricket for many years and only gave up playing Saturday’s as my club folded. I still play Thursdays when speedway is not on but both the playing and watching is a social thing. As top class cricket is not on my door step and Gloucester are not my team the decision was fairly easy. 

[theblueboy]

I can’t believe that some of my fellow posters cannot see what Orion is saying.

Swindon won the league last season but Rosco has said publicly that they made a substantial loss. Now that could be £5k, it could be £50k but the bottom line is if the team that won the league lost money how did the other clubs make fare? 

If you are suggesting that the promoters have ‘business accumen’ then why do they continually make losses every season? Why do they have to continually dilute the product? We have lost Rye House this season, why is that? That doesn’t sound like they have much business acumen to me!

Every year we have the same problems, the same arguments and its the promoters that are the problem.

They have failed to move the sport with the times and think it’s acceptable to watch a professional sport with 21st century equipment whilst held in 1970’s stadia. Do you think football would be as popular if it were held in stadia and the pitches were similar to those in the 1970’s.

Rugby league adapted. It couldn’t compete with football. They needed to change. So they moved it’s season to accommodate Sky, have a Magic Weekend, play on lovely pitches and it’s a fast paced sport. Far better than the crap that filled up Grandstand’s schedule from 15.55 - 16.40 when I was a boy in the 70’s when it was pouring with rain and Bradford Northern beat Featherstone 4-2 in a absolute hummdinger. 

Darts is another sport that was dying on its arse but has made a comeback.

The issue lies squarely with the promoters but speedway has gone too far now. It’s dead in the water and there is no turning back. There is no infrastructure or thought process of where they are going or what they want to do. It’s hand to mouth every season with the promise of a new dawn.

Its the promoters that have done everything on a fag packet not Orion. 

 

[orion]

23 minutes ago, theblueboy said:

 

 

 

Rugby league adapted. It couldn’t compete with football. They needed to  when I was a boy in the 70’s when it was pouring with rain and Bradford Northern beat Featherstone 4-2 in a absolute hummdinger. 

 

 

 

 

I remember.that.match.mick I watched it in black and white so I never knew who was who.