The continuing decline of Speedway

[orion]

18 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

Most sports would be in trouble without television and sponsorship. But speedway has to be given credit, surely, that it's battled on through more bad times than good. 

It should be given no credit ..it's been ran poorly hence why it has no  sponsorship and hardly any  television 

[steve roberts]

45 minutes ago, orion said:

As I explained many time once the uk become not the  first choice of the riders the whole game changed ..so things like second halfs ,Golden Helmet ,solo  events etc etc were never going to work again ..just saying bring them back because they worked in the 70's is naïve and stupid ..it's bit like saying put more phone boxes on the street because they used to take a lot of money years ago .

You and the likes of Moxey do yourself no favours buy keep crabbing other sports that are doing really well just because you don't like them ..I said before you have a breed of speedway fan aged between 55 to 70  a lot who  only turn up on these topics who only aim is to bring back rules when they used to go  

 

...and as I keep reminding you it's been generally accpted that speedway started to decline during the mid - late eighties...long before foreign leagues influenced the choice riders had to make. It's more complex than that. It wasn't until the advent of the GPs that this scenario began to change significantly.

I don't think that anybody has specifically stated that by re-introducing aspects of the sixties and/or seventies and/or eighties speedway will become more popular. Changing of rules, heat formula etc etc drove many away from the sport but, more significantly, failed to attract new comers to the sport for varying reasons and/or circumstances.

As regards other sports I'm not particularly interested as it's difficult to compare like with like. Each has their own agendas and media hype.

However I do find it ironic that you are quick to have a go at certain posters but I fail to see anything positive from yourself when discussing speedway either from the past or indeed the present and I would be interested to learn what you once saw in the sport but now appear disillusioned ?

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

2 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...and as I keep reminding you it's been generally accpted that speedway started to decline during the mid - late eighties...long before foreign leagues influenced the choice riders had to make. It's more complex than that. It wasn't until the advent of the GPs that this scenario began to change significantly.

I don't think that anybody has specifically stated that by re-introducing aspects of the sixties and/or seventies and/or eighties speedway will become more popular. Changing of rules, heat formula etc etc drove many away from the sport but failed to attract new comers which is critical to the survival of the sport.

As regards other sports I'm not particularly interested and it's difficult to compare like with like. Each has there own agendas and media hype.

However I do find it ironic that you are quick to have a go at certain posters but I fail to see anything positive from yourself when discussing speedway either in the past or present and I would be interested to learn what you once saw in the sport but now appear disillusioned with it?

 

As  I said if you don't understand other sports or not interested in them then don't comment .as I said it's so naïve to say thy only popular because of media hype or people only go so they  can get drunk .the clueless comments about football and 20-20 cricket say it all 

I say plenty of positive of things about about speedway the play offs and gp's are a great advert for the sport ..I find it's ironic that you go on about positive when don't even go anymore .tell me what do find positive what  new idea's have you got  ? as I said the  bottom line is your only remit it's to go on about 20 years ago ..don't tell me no play offs and bring back the one   off world final yea ?

[moxey63]

17 minutes ago, orion said:

As I explained many time once the uk become not the  first choice of the riders the whole game changed ..so things like second halfs ,Golden Helmet ,solo  events etc etc were never going to work again ..just saying bring them back because they worked in the 70's is naïve and stupid ..it's bit like saying put more phone boxes on the street because they used to take a lot of money years ago .

You and the likes of Moxey do yourself no favours buy keep crabbing other sports that are doing really well just because you don't like them ..I said before you have a breed of speedway fan aged between 55 to 70  a lot who  only turn up on these topics who only aim is to bring back rules when they used to go  

 

All I want back from the 70s is the team ethic and riders cutting back on the number of clubs they race for.

[moxey63]

31 minutes ago, orion said:

It should be given no credit ..it's been ran poorly hence why it has no  sponsorship and hardly any  television 

Hardly any television? Are you still on analogue? 

[orion]

3 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

All I want back from the 70s is the team ethic and riders cutting back on the number of clubs they race for.

So you like the plays offs and Gp's .before you said you never .what changed your mind ? 

[steve roberts]

41 minutes ago, orion said:

As  I said if you don't understand other sports or not interested in them then don't comment .as I said it's so naïve to say thy only popular because of media hype or people only go so they  can get drunk .the clueless comments about football and 20-20 cricket say it all 

I say plenty of positive of things about about speedway the play offs and gp's are a great advert for the sport ..I find it's ironic that you go on about positive when don't even go anymore .tell me what do find positive what  new idea's have you got  ? as I said the  bottom line is your only remit it's to go on about 20 years ago ..don't tell me no play offs and bring back the one   off world final yea ?

...yes and you constantly compared the introduction of Play- Offs in speedway to other sports (football in particular) As has been pointed out to you many times in the past Play-Offs in football were introduced to decide Promotion/Regulation issues not championships (unlike speedway) Can't imagine football fans being happy with that particular scenario if it was introduced. 

As regards the GPs (as has been pointed out by better people than myself and to repeat my earlier post) it was thru' their introduction that riders began to pick and choose their commitments and/or regularity  of meetings which created problems with continuity regarding meetings in this country. Of course one can argue it raised the profile of the sport but it has been achieved at a high price as regards the domestic programme. Depends on one's differing perspective and views. More importantly, however, the lost revenue that a one-off British World Final as well as other FIM meetings that once upon a time the BSPA would take a slice.

Neither Play-Offs or the GPs have helped generate a new generation of fans. As regards my views on the sport I have posted on many occasions both the positives and negatives if you cared to read...as I know you read my posts diligently! 

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

7 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...yes and you constantly compared the introduction of Play- Offs in speedway to other sports (football in particular) As has been pointed out to you many times in the past Play-Offs in football were introduced to decide Promotion/Regulation issues not championships (unlike speedway) Can't imagine football fans being happy with that particular scenario if it was introduced.

As regards the GPs (as has been pointed out by better people than myself and to repeat my earlier post) it was thru' their introduction that riders began to pick and choose their commitments and/or regularity  of meetings which created problems with continuity regarding meetings in this country. Of course one can argue it raised the profile of the sport but it has been achieved at a high price as regards the domestic programme. Depends on one's differing perspective and views. More, importantly, however the lost revenue that a one-off British World Final as well as other FIM meetings that once upon a time the BSPA would take a slice.

Another lie .you are one who kept on about football .I compared them to other sports that used the same format  to decide the winners .I explained to why football never had to used them ..as you know  nothing about other sports  that is going to be hard for you to take that in .

I ask you again what are these postives  and idea's you  go on about that don't include going back to the past ..what are they ?

Edited August 17, 2018 by orion

[steve roberts]

33 minutes ago, orion said:

Another lie .you are one who kept on about football .I compared them to other sports that used the same format  to decide the winners .I explained to why football never had to used them ..as you nothing about other sporst that is going to be hard for you to take that in .

I ask you again what are these postives  and idea's you  go on about that don't include going back to the past ..what are they ?

...I've listed my criteria many times in the past (continuity/rider familiarity/a workable non-manipulative rule book/continuity of race formulae within leagues which was not always the case/length of races/an Independent controlling body/proper training structure as in Sweden and Denmark/non-reliance of foreigners in the lower league etc etc etc)

Remind me which other sports use the same Play-Off system speedway as you apparently know all about other sports. The fact that I used to follow football, Ice Hockey. Motor Racing, American Football and Snooker doesn't count for anything as I no longer have an active interest in them anymore.

I've named some of my views as regards my experience of many years of following speedway (in front and behind the scenes) but I'd be interested in yours and where you see the sport in the future considering that, I assume, you still attend? The Play-Offs and the GPs have been discussed and dissected enough regarding both the pros and cons but other aspects would prove intriguing. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

Just now, steve roberts said:

...I've listed my criteria many times in the past (continuity/rider familiarity/a workable non-manipulative rule book/continuity of race formulae within leagues which was not always the case/length of races etc etc etc)

Remind me which other sports use the same Play-Off system speedway as you apparently know all about other sports. The fact that I used to follow football, Ice Hockey. Motor Racing, American Football and Snooker doesn't count for anything as I no longer have an active interest in them anymore.

I've named some of my views as regards my experience of many years of following speedway (in front and behind the scenes) but I'd be interested in yours and where you see the sport in the future considering that, I assume, you still attend? The Play-Offs and the GPs have been discussed and dissected enough regarding both the pros and cons but other aspects would prove intriguing. 

Rugby Union  ,Rugby League Premier league darts ,American Football ,20 -20 cricket  ,Ice hockey .,Netball .also speedway in Sweden and Poland ..it's very hard to  find a team sport that never uses them now 

[moxey63]

1 hour ago, orion said:

So you like the plays offs and Gp's .before you said you never .what changed your mind ? 

I don't like the Play-offs. Find where I said I don't like the GPs and get back to me. I don't recall that and may need to see the doctor, my memory's definitely going.

 

The Play-Offs are a big kick at the end of the season, a "bumper" attendance. The whole qualifying league programme is a waste of people paying money to watch. is this partly why crowds are dropping? Yet again Poole have benefitted from being allowed to weaken in the purpose of signing better riders. They'll win the Play-Offs now. A normal system without Play-Offs makes every match count. In the Play-Off qualifiers, you can piddle about. Ridiculous in my opinion. Why bother turning out and paying to watch the majority of those.. just turn up for the Final. But if you like it... Try selling it to all the new fans banging down the door, because it isn't the 70s, you know. What other changes can you think of? I just put forward the ones I think will work, and I didn't mention the Golden Helmet or second halves.

[moxey63]

13 minutes ago, orion said:

Rugby Union  ,Rugby League Premier league darts ,American Football ,20 -20 cricket  ,Ice hockey .,Netball .also speedway in Sweden and Poland ..it's very hard to  find a team sport that never uses them now 

But are any of those sports using speedway's rules, where a team is built to a limit at the start a season, purposely weakens itself and allowed to capture better players to make it stronger, and then goes on to win the top prize when most fans realise it was just one big twist. Poole fans were up in arms a few months back, wanting Matt Ford to quit. Then, wham-bam thank you mam, Rye House closed, a quick rejiggle and... everything is bright and breezy again at Wimborne Road. It is one big farce. The Play-Off system is a sham- Woffinden returning for Wolves to help them defeat what had been the better team all year. But, eh, if you like it... try telling the returning fans Belle Vue's new stadium attracted back after umpteen years, yet who were quickly put off by Tai's late-season call for Wolves as he steered them to victory. The other sports you mention, I guess, aren't even similar to speedway, in which one or two team switches can drastically alter your outcome. Again, ask Poole fans 

Edited August 17, 2018 by moxey63

[steve roberts]

27 minutes ago, orion said:

Rugby Union  ,Rugby League Premier league darts ,American Football ,20 -20 cricket  ,Ice hockey .,Netball .also speedway in Sweden and Poland ..it's very hard to  find a team sport that never uses them now 

...accepted (Premier League Darts? Strewth!) and your views on where the sport should be going assuming that you still go? I've given you a few of mine without having to repeat long winded  often repeated explanations.

The Play-Offs have been discussed and as Moxey and other posts have suggested it's not a level playing field and different criteria more often than not.

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

6 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

I don't like the Play-offs. Find where I said I don't like the GPs and get back to me. I don't recall that and may need to see the doctor, my memory's definitely going.

 

The Play-Offs are a big kick at the end of the season, a "bumper" attendance. The whole qualifying league programme is a waste of people paying money to watch. is this partly why crowds are dropping? Yet again Poole have benefitted from being allowed to weaken in the purpose of signing better riders. They'll win the Play-Offs now. A normal system without Play-Offs makes every match count. In the Play-Off qualifiers, you can piddle about. Ridiculous in my opinion. Why bother turning out and paying to watch the majority of those.. just turn up for the Final. But if you like it... Try selling it to all the new fans banging down the door, because it isn't the 70s, you know. What other changes can you think of? I just put forward the ones I think will work, and I didn't mention the Golden Helmet or second halves.

So if went back to old league season every match would count yea ? so if a 5th place team rode the 4th place team and they were 20 points behind the leaders what would that count for ? looking forward to this answer .

As has been explained a million times much more reason to watch more matches in a play off season than a normal one 

[moxey63]

11 minutes ago, orion said:

So if went back to old league season every match would count yea ? so if a 5th place team rode the 4th place team and they were 20 points behind the leaders what would that count for ? looking forward to this answer .

As has been explained a million times much more reason to watch more matches in a play off season than a normal one 

But how do the Play-Offs seem fair to a team that's won the qualifying table by 20 points and loses out to a team that finished fourth but have strengthened in the last quarter of the season?

[orion]

1 minute ago, moxey63 said:

But how do the Play-Offs seem fair to a team that's won the qualifying table by 20 points and loses out to a team that finished fourth but have strengthened in the last quarter of the season?

No one in any sport has ever said that  the play offs are fair ..the play off have always used to keep the season open for more teams  and make them money .also every understands the rules before hand .

without play offs and nothing to race for the modern fan will not go  and clubs will go bus,t in fact play offs in speedway are more important  than any other sport ..I ask again why would you watch a speedway match between a 4th and 5th team who have no chance of winning the league under the rules you want ? you said every match would count so explain what that would count for .

 

[moxey63]

17 minutes ago, orion said:

No one in any sport has ever said that  the play offs are fair ..the play off have always used to keep the season open for more teams  and make them money .also every understands the rules before hand .

without play offs and nothing to race for the modern fan will not go  and clubs will go bus,t in fact play offs in speedway are more important  than any other sport ..I ask again why would you watch a speedway match between a 4th and 5th team who have no chance of winning the league under the rules you want ? you said every match would count so explain what that would count for .

 

So, a fan of a 4th or 5th place team that has no chance of winning the league may give up following the team? Perhaps so, in this age where riders will turn out for anyone else at the drop of a hat. But in my world of team ethic speedway, you'd go to every match because the seven riders and you would build up some kind of bond. I used to turn up match upon match to Belle Vue, and much of that time they were near the bottom. Perhaps that's what's gone wrong with sport now, as Poole fans recently showed, either you're first in the glory system or you're on the couch at home. Someone has to finsih last, or would you make even bottom sides enter the Play-Offs? You know, it'd keep the season alive for them.  

 

I also recall one occasion a Play-Off-chasing team arrived at Belle Vue and seemed to purposely lose by a heavy margin to enable them a better draw in the semis. The whole Play-Off table matches can encourage both match and rider points massaging over the course of the league campaign. Not good. Speedway could do without such question marks being thrown its way if it wants to win or retain any credibility.

Edited August 17, 2018 by moxey63

[orion]

11 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

So, a fan of a 4th or 5th place team that has no chance of winning the league may give up following the team? Perhaps so, in this age where riders will turn out for anyone else at the drop of a hat. But in my world of team ethic speedway, you'd go to every match because the seven riders and you would build up some kind of bond. I used to turn up match upon match to Belle Vue, and much of that time they were near the bottom. Perhaps that's what's gone wrong with sport now, as Poole fans recently showed, either you're first in the glory system or you're on the couch at home. Someone has to finsih last, or would you make even bottom sides enter the Play-Offs? You know, it'd keep the season alive for them.  

Of course they will ..yet again you a have a  1970 mind set .a large % of fans wont go unless there is something to race for surely your aware of that ?  What you say about Poole is spot on ..The play offs keep  more teams seasons alive and even bottom like the lions had a match v Belle Vue had something on it due to  the play off places 

[steve roberts]

30 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

So, a fan of a 4th or 5th place team that has no chance of winning the league may give up following the team? Perhaps so, in this age where riders will turn out for anyone else at the drop of a hat. But in my world of team ethic speedway, you'd go to every match because the seven riders and you would build up some kind of bond. I used to turn up match upon match to Belle Vue, and much of that time they were near the bottom. Perhaps that's what's gone wrong with sport now, as Poole fans recently showed, either you're first in the glory system or you're on the couch at home. Someone has to finsih last, or would you make even bottom sides enter the Play-Offs? You know, it'd keep the season alive for them.  

 

I also recall one occasion a Play-Off-chasing team arrived at Belle Vue and seemed to purposely lose by a heavy margin to enable them a better draw in the semis. The whole Play-Off table matches can encourage both match and rider points massaging over the course of the league campaign. Not good. Speedway could do without such question marks being thrown its way if it wants to win or retain any credibility.

...and of course the semis were just the one leg (are they still?) which obviously heavily favoured the home team. Without checking records have any away teams won a semi-final clash and qualified for the final? Why not two legged semi-finals followed by a two legged final unless you were Oxford in 2002 who were denied a chance to defend their championship thru' no fault of their own!

Again the assumption that Play-Offs helps generate new/and or old fans hasn't been borne out if overall attendance figures are to be believed throughout the season which is surely what domestic speedway requires if it is to thrive. Play-Offs should be the icing on the cake but you first need a cake.

Edited August 17, 2018 by steve roberts

[moxey63]

15 minutes ago, orion said:

Of course they will ..yet again you a have a  1970 mind set .a large % of fans wont go unless there is something to race for surely your aware of that ?  What you say about Poole is spot on ..The play offs keep  more teams seasons alive and even bottom like the lions had a match v Belle Vue had something on it due to  the play off places 

8

I await the influx of new fans then. I can't keep living in the 1970s. Just glad I watched speedway when it really didn't need sideshows to keep fans attending. I suppose Stuart Hall and It's A KnockOut is more apt for current speedway though, if I can revert back to that wonderful decade once more. 

Edited August 17, 2018 by moxey63