dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 1 hour ago, montie said: for sure a wining team does click the turn styles a few more time,but i do wonder if the extra clicks actually cover the cost of a winning team interesting point about the track not being same each week, is that a good thing or a bad thing? i guess as long as its raceable and provides entertainment its ok Track curators seem to try and produce a track that suits the riders of the hme team,i often wonder if that is right for the paying spectators i must say that my visit to the show ground last month the track was perfect for what i consider good speedway and the quality meeting represented that,it really was in tip top condition,but then during a rider interview the said rider commented that the track was a bit ``iffy`` ........ I understand the showground is now in need of additional clay input which is causing some issues A suitable supply at the right price doesnt appear to be available.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, montie said: for sure a wining team does click the turn styles a few more time,but i do wonder if the extra clicks actually cover the cost of a winning team interesting point about the track not being same each week, is that a good thing or a bad thing? i guess as long as its raceable and provides entertainment its ok Track curators seem to try and produce a track that suits the riders of the hme team,i often wonder if that is right for the paying spectators i must say that my visit to the show ground last month the track was perfect for what i consider good speedway and the quality meeting represented that,it really was in tip top condition,but then during a rider interview the said rider commented that the track was a bit ``iffy`` ........ It isn't each week unfortunately, more like each month these days, so that doesn't help. It's always rideable but raceable and providing entertainment depends on who you're asking or which report you're reading. Good point about what type of track is provided and the entertainment it provides. We've long been told that the riders want the EoES slick but I doubt many paying punters do, especially long term supporters or those who are no longer paying speedway supporters. Think that was Ostrich commenting on the track? A couple of meetings ago someone else moaned (can't recall who) that it was never the same two meetings running. Batchelor was always the best though with typical aussie tact and diplomacy I don't think the team is a budget buster. Rathbone seems to send anyone packing who gets lost in their self importance so I guess that the extra clicks are money in the bank this year at least. Edited August 9, 2018 by Crump99 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Crump99 said: Good point about what type of track is provided and the entertainment it provides. We've long been told that the riders want the EoES slick but I doubt many paying punters do, especially long term supporters or those who are no longer paying speedway supporters. ...and therein lay one of the major issues in British speedway; what the riders want and what the paying customers want are two totally different things! The supporters resent the riders for wanting conditions to suit THEM, when it is the riders who are the ones risking their necks. Of course, the riders then resent the supporters for wanting things that interfere with their jobs! Both opinions are totally justified, but it gets us nowhere. The issue seems to be the modern "all about me" concept, but unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is. Without the riders, there is no speedway. Without the fans, there is no speedway. Looks like we're screwed either way... Steve Edited August 9, 2018 by chunky 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, chunky said: ...and therein lay one of the major issues in British speedway; what the riders want and what the paying customers want are two totally different things! The supporters resent the riders for wanting conditions to suit THEM, when it is the riders who are the ones risking their necks. Of course, the riders then resent the supporters for wanting things that interfere with their jobs! Both opinions are totally justified, but it gets us nowhere. The issue seems to be the modern "all about me" concept, but unfortunately, I don't know what the answer is. Without the riders, there is no speedway. Without the fans, there is no speedway. Looks like we're screwed either way... Steve It's up to promoters collectively in that case to deliver a product that the fans want to watch, but we know that one or two at least will break ranks to knacker up any such agreement. Riders risk their necks by choice and can choose not to do it as a profession if they wish. That's not to make light of the dangers and their wishes need to be listened to and respected but the bottom line has to be that it is what it is and you can get on with it or do something else. Forgot to mention, I think that when Swales was asked about this subject last year he said that the modern volatile bikes can't handle the tracks as they were prepared 10, 15 or 20 years ago so perhaps slick is the way it has to be which will only hasten the decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Crump99 said: Forgot to mention, I think that when Swales was asked about this subject last year he said that the modern volatile bikes can't handle the tracks as they were prepared 10, 15 or 20 years ago so perhaps slick is the way it has to be which will only hasten the decline. Right! We already know that from comments from riders and ex-riders! So, what is the answer? As you say, if we stick with what we have, it will continue in a downward spiral... Looking at comments on here, we accept that there will always be conflicts, and as I said before, everyone is an "expert"! There are two choices, then: 1) Fix the tracks to suit the bikes. 2) Fix the bikes to suit the tracks. That leaves us with these questions: 1) Which will be more practical/viable? 2) Which is more likely to stop the rot? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, chunky said: Right! We already know that from comments from riders and ex-riders! So, what is the answer? As you say, if we stick with what we have, it will continue in a downward spiral... Looking at comments on here, we accept that there will always be conflicts, and as I said before, everyone is an "expert"! There are two choices, then: 1) Fix the tracks to suit the bikes. 2) Fix the bikes to suit the tracks. That leaves us with these questions: 1) Which will be more practical/viable? 2) Which is more likely to stop the rot? Steve Have to agree with your last few Posts.It does appear the riders with their demands regarding tracks and wages are dictating the sport as oppose the the people running it.It is meant to be sport first and foremost.Most people realise the catch 22 situation but will it change now or is it too far into the mire.Its obvious regarding entertainment value it getting beyond prices that fans are having to pay regarding family entertainment( more than 1 member attending regular)which the sport has relied on as its basic package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 On 8/8/2018 at 7:19 PM, Spl77 said: I want to see is my team v their team with the contracted riders and not a whole host guests and doubling up etc. Until they can get rid of doubling up and and guests no one can take it as a serious team sport. Its impossible to build up rivalry either between teams or individual riders if the following week some of this weeks visitors are riding for you. The blame for the chas that doubling has brought and the resulting lack of riders can only be placed firmly at the door of the BSPA. Before I get shot down and the 'guests are part of speedway and can't be helped' line comes out remember if you can the National League of the mid to late 1980s. That league ran for number of seasons with out guests and injuries were covered either with a member of the junior team stepping on or with rider replacement and a number 8 being named. So it could be done however the policy changes brought in over the years by the BSPA saw that system removed and changed to the shambles that we see today. Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisperer Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, orion said: Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan Not quite fixed race nights were to avoid clubs being in conflict with double up riders, it was to allow riders to ride in both leagues if necessary. Once guests were needed on a Friday 3 CL clubs were chucked under a bus to make more riders available. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 36 minutes ago, Fromafar said: It does appear the riders with their demands regarding tracks and wages are dictating the sport as oppose the the people running it.It is meant to be sport first and foremost.Most people realise the catch 22 situation but will it change now or is it too far into the mire. The disturbing thing is that while British speedway has been in decline for many years, it was still relatively successful, and largely self-sufficient. Suddenly, everyone is sitting up and realising that we have now reached the point of no return. There is no single reason for the sport's problems, and unfortunately, there is no single - or easy - fix. Of course, the biggest issue is the finances, and as much as I hate to say it, the riders have to shoulder much of the blame. Thing is, the promoters are equally at fault by spending more than they could afford. I accept that these days, everyone thinks they are special, and that they deserve to be treated as such. That applies to all sports, and as someone who has spent a lifetime in professional sport, I do think that many sports have been ruined by money. I don't have a problem with the top names earning more, but I also feel that their demands shouldn't exceed the supply. We all know that hasn't happened in speedway, and I honestly fear it is too late... Steve 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, orion said: Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan "Less guests" is your typical Speedway half arsed measure of success., But as we know, in reality it's no measure at all.. How many guests can be used to keep the Sports credibility and integrity? How many guests can be used before the Sport has no credibilty and integrity? A typical Speedway measure of success based on subjectivity rather than a tangible attainment... BV have been involved in meetings containing 17 Guests this year. (14 used by them). Is that OK? Does that maintain credibilty or not? Or is 16 the level of success? Or maybe 18 or 19, before credibilty is lost..? One thing has though clearly emerged by the way 'fixed nights' have been implemented.. And that is Guest riders are a main fundamental part of the operating and business model of the Sport (if they were not then simply all teams would have been planned in to ride on the same night)... Therefore the Sport has gone well past its tipping point re ever being ran like a 'proper sport', so surely the best thing for it to do, is to leave each club to run whenever it likes on nights it can bring the most customers in? Guests will always be required it seems as there is no appetite to change this, so you might as well just put out two teams of any random riders on the best nights for your customers who (by the definition of still attending as they do) don't see Guestfests as an issue, (or if they do, they see it as a lesser issue than how the race night negatively effects their capabilty to attend).. BV this year has seen crowds drop. They have used many Guests (or maybe not that many, who knows???) However, riding on a Friday or Saturday would still have meant Guests (and maybe even more), but crowds would have been 300-400 bigger I would suggest.. And an extra 8000 punters per season would bring circa £100k in after VAT (about a third of the rent)... Time to accept what we have is all there will be and stop trying to meet things 'halfway'.. If it has to be Guestfest after Guestfest then so be it... But be transparent about it... Edited August 10, 2018 by mikebv 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted August 9, 2018 Report Share Posted August 9, 2018 the decline started in this country when Ronnie Russell was allowed to sign foreign (non-Commonwealth) riders in the old NL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, stevehone said: the decline started in this country when Ronnie Russell was allowed to sign foreign (non-Commonwealth) riders in the old NL. ...I would agree although Jens Rasmussen (one of Rye House's foreign signings) was a favourite of mine at Cowley but he was one of those middle order riders who were continually victimised and/or sacrificed because of varying points limits and found himself without a team place. The flood gates then opened and many mediocre foreign imports began to infiltrate the National League depriving opportunities to British riders which was one reason why the Old Second/National League was first implemented. That.of course, diminished over the years and one could argue that Mervyn Stewkesbury didn't help matters during his tenure. Edited August 10, 2018 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisperer Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 hours ago, mikebv said: "Less guests" is your typical Speedway half arsed measure of success., But as we know, in reality it's no measure at all.. How many guests can be used to keep the Sports credibility and integrity? How many guests can be used before the Sport has no credibilty and integrity? A typical Speedway measure of success based on subjectivity rather than a tangible attainment... BV have been involved in meetings containing 17 Guests this year. (14 used by them). Is that OK? Does that maintain credibilty or not? Or is 16 the level or success? Or maybe 18 or 19, before credibilty is lost..? One thing has though clearly emerged by the way 'fixed nights' have been implemented.. And that is Guest riders are a main fundamental part of the operating and business model of the Sport (if they were not then simply all teams would have been planned in to ride on the same night)... Therefore the Sport has gone well past its tipping point re ever being ran like a 'proper sport', so surely the best thing for it to do, is to leave each club to run whenever it likes on nights it can bring the most customers in? Guests will always be required it seems as there is no appetite to change this, so you might as well just put out two teams of any random riders on the best nights for your customers who (by the definition of still attending as they do) don't see Guestfests as an issue, (or if they do, they see it as a lesser issue than how the race night negatively effects their capabilty to attend).. BV this year has seen crowds drop. They have used many Guests (or maybe not that many), who knows??? However, riding on a Friday or Saturday would still have meant Guests (and maybe even more), but crowds would have been 300-400 bigger I would suggest.. And an extra 8000 punters per season would bring circa £100k in after VAT (about a third of the rent)... Time to accept what we have is all there will be and stop trying to meet things 'halfway'.. If it has to be Guestfest after Guestfest then so be it... But be transparent about it... So they ignore the plight of clubs who are forced to change race night and it's no secret that Rye House and Belle Vue opposed it, switching back will not automatically bring all those lost customers back they will need to be enticed. The one league proposal may do that but this solution will increase the costs of the surviving CL clubs who are losing money so they lose more and the current PL clubs will have a small cost reduction so may lose less per meeting but will have more meetings so they lose more money too! The next solution is to reduce it to say 13 heats to take 12 points out of a match and maybe a bonus point too and/or 5/6 rider teams to reduce travel, sign on, vans, mechanics, tyres, fuel, insurance and accomodation cost that some of these silly battards have been paying. To me this is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic, they're not clever enough to implement it and they do not have the personal integrity to agree, uphold and abide by the rules and regulations to make it work. A cheque book Speedway club will win the league and ultimately it will fail for the same reasons as last time. Exeter, Long Eaton and Sheffield were left without number ones and had to throw a small fortune at Loram, Correy and Ermolenko to get them out of the mire and stop them losing at home. The top riders went to the top payers simple as. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 10 hours ago, orion said: Fans said they wanted less guests etc so chapman brought in fixed race nights to help ...the result was fans moaning about the race night . ...You can't replace main riders with juniors as it effects the crowd levels . I hate to say it but there are no easy answers ..even when you give the fans what they want they still moan Interesting that you failed to reply to the doubling up point I made this has possibly become more of an issue in harming the credibility than guests however the two combined are a death sentence. I was just reading an article on Simon Cross. In that he mention that he should have quit when Cradley closed as that was his club and the riders fans and management were one big family. With the doubling up and guest fest of today that feeling can't apply to any club. It certainly doesn't at Ipswich which is why I haven't been for many years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Spl77 said: Interesting that you failed to reply to the doubling up point I made this has possibly become more of an issue in harming the credibility than guests however the two combined are a death sentence. I was just reading an article on Simon Cross. In that he mention that he should have quit when Cradley closed as that was his club and the riders fans and management were one big family. With the doubling up and guest fest of today that feeling can't apply to any club. It certainly doesn't at Ipswich which is why I haven't been for many years. Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 British Speedway needs guests and it needs doubling up. None of these discredit the sport. With riders doubling up, they still belong to those clubs and with fixed race night's the clash issue doesn't exist like 2017. What does discredit the sport is certain promoters who power trip, make up rules, make up rider's averages and dictate other clubs fixtures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, orion said: Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . We also didn't have the Internet or Social Media, so often would turn up to watch a Speedway meeting, pay to get in, and only then find out PC had been replaced, or your team or the other had three or four guests... What we did have though was National terrestrial TV showing meetings most weeks that had no guest riders as they were individual meetings, which then had a positive spin off for the domestic Leagues... You could watch the riders (most weeks) that you saw in TV on the Saturday... And at a reasonable admission cost too.. Simply, if Football, Cricket, Rugby Union/League, etc etc did the same and used 'Guests/Ringers' to cover absenses then those sports too would (quite rightly) open themselves up to ridicule in this modern era of 24/7 information and (also quite rightly) have a deserved reputation of being a bit 'Mickey Mouse'... Nowadays your 'brand' is so, so important... And the credibilty of what any 'brand' stands for/puts out/produces, is absolutely the most important stand alone asset it has. Everything else that comes from this, (good or bad, positive or negative), 100% starts from its credibilty rating in the eyes of the general public, which in turn, will directly influence them to utilise the products/services provided (or not as the case may be)..... Edited August 10, 2018 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 20 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said: British Speedway needs guests and it needs doubling up. None of these discredit the sport. With riders doubling up, they still belong to those clubs and with fixed race night's the clash issue doesn't exist like 2017. 1 Please tell me you're joking. I'd say they're up there with the Joker and Golden Double. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, orion said: Credibility is over egged in speedway .in the old days will still had guests and rr and we had a world speedway final that make sure that it never top 16 in the world in it but still 70 k of fans came and watched . Please tell me that you're joking? With comments with that are you sure that you're not a member of the BSPA? Credibility is what speedway needs before it can even think about trying to reinvent its self and stop the alarming slide in fan base. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 10, 2018 Report Share Posted August 10, 2018 23 minutes ago, mikebv said: We also didn't have the Internet or Social Media, so often would turn up to watch a Speedway meeting, pay to get in, and only then find out PC had been replaced, or your team or the other had three or four guests... What we did have though was National terrestrial TV showing meetings most weeks that had no guest riders as they were individual meetings, which then had a positive spin off for the domestic Leagues... You could watch the riders (most weeks) that you saw in TV on the Saturday... And at a reasonable admission cost too.. Simply, if Football, Cricket, Rugby Union/League, etc etc did the same and used 'Guests/Ringers' to cover absenses then those sports too would (quite rightly) open themselves up to ridicule in this modern era of 24/7 information and (also quite rightly) have a deserved reputation of being a bit 'Mickey Mouse'... Nowadays your 'brand' is so, so important... And the credibilty of what any 'brand' stands for/puts out/produces, is absolutely the most important stand alone asset it has. Everything else that comes from this, (good or bad, positive or negative), 100% starts from its credibilty rating in the eyes of the general public, which in turn, will directly influence them to utilise the products/services provided (or not as the case may be)..... A lot Football players teams are full of Loans players no one has a problem with that ..Football has a cup called the champions league that has teams without champions in it but is one most watched comp in the world ...anyone can pulled apart a sport with stupid rules they all have them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.