The continuing decline of Speedway

[Hodgy]

11 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

The evidence of the Football PL shows you are wrong about modern fans. No play offs and not only do supporters turn up in huge numbers but the vast majority of fans know that their club has virtually no chance of winning the league of finishing in the top 3. They realise that success for them is finishing mid table or, avoiding relegation and that is sufficient to keep them interested and turning up to matches. 

Sorry can’t agree. The Football PL is vital to finish in the top 4, Champions League, Europa League and avoiding disastrous relegation. Keeps many clubs with something to play for and vast majority of fans interested. No need for play offs. Speedway doesn’t have this option. 

[ouch]

I’ll be honest and say the damage has already been done. I banged the drum many many years ago to no avail. The play off debate in terms of speedway can be quite complex and many of the intricacies are lost on some. 

We are now at the point where we need to attract new fans as the anorak wearing, board waving fans have been pretty much forced out. The sad thing is their money is just as good as anyone’s yet it’s been almost literally thrown away. 

[marko]

Historically most Mondays either in the past via Sky or now via BT the outcome in more or less the same, not many fans in attendance, no atmosphere BUT come the play offs, Still on a Monday night and suddenly the stadiums are alive and buzzing with record numbers of fans for that club, for that season, its great but where were all those fans the previous six months?

So the question is, are the league meetings not seen as important enough? and if so, how do they get more people taking an interest in the journey and not just the destination?

The play offs work, they generate interest and therefore money, no need to change that, but the play offs on their own will not subsidize everyone's season.

[steve roberts]

6 hours ago, ouch said:

When your clientele is old farts, of course you’re going to attempt to bring in a younger crowd. What you don’t do is implement a system (or systems) that helps drive these old farts away whilst simultaneously failing to attract newbies. 

...Good post! My point exactly and something I've commented upon many times over the years initially on the old Oxford Forum and those who I used to stand with on the pits turn at Cowley....many, if not all, that are now lost to the sport.

Edited August 7, 2018 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

5 hours ago, marko said:

Historically most Mondays either in the past via Sky or now via BT the outcome in more or less the same, not many fans in attendance, no atmosphere BUT come the play offs, Still on a Monday night and suddenly the stadiums are alive and buzzing with record numbers of fans for that club, for that season, its great but where were all those fans the previous six months?

So the question is, are the league meetings not seen as important enough? and if so, how do they get more people taking an interest in the journey and not just the destination?

The play offs work, they generate interest and therefore money, no need to change that, but the play offs on their own will not subsidize everyone's season.

...The Play-Offs should be the icing on the cake but when you have  no cake...

The reality is that although speedway has run with Play-Offs for 17 (?) years thru it's involvement with SKY TV it hasn't become the saviour of the sport as some may have predicted or had us believe and the decline has continued. There are many issues that need addressing but where to start is the big question. The BSPA at every post/pre season annual meeting come up with all sorts of initiatives but none apparently provide what the sport desperately needs...new fans.

Perhaps speedway was of a past time and is beyond rescue?

Edited August 7, 2018 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

4 hours ago, Grachan said:

How about having the KO Cup at the end of the year. Draw based on league position. Top v Bottom, Second v Second from bottom and so on. And rename it "The Play Offs".

Winners of the league are League Champions. Play off winners are "British Champions".

Then you have League Champs. You have Play Off/British Champs. Everyone is happy. Because Play Offs/British Champions sound important. KO Cup doesn't. Nobody will notice it's the same thing.

...The 1985 Knock Out Cup Final between Oxford and Ipswich drew fabulous crowds (I attended both) and both were full of atmosphere and incident. Some of those present said that it was the best meeting held at Cowley in many a long year...myself included. Why were they something special? Because both promotions treated it with respect and seriousness and that was reflected in the finished product which is how all meetings should be conducted.

Wished I had witnessed the clash between Peter Collins and Anders Michanek (1973 KO Cup Final Second Leg) Many who witnessed it said that it was the best race they had ever seen. Personally I feel there is a place for the Knock Out Cup in one format or another...however I'm sure that there are those who would disagree!

Edited August 7, 2018 by steve roberts

[Ovalman]

5 hours ago, marko said:

Historically most Mondays either in the past via Sky or now via BT the outcome in more or less the same, not many fans in attendance, no atmosphere BUT come the play offs, Still on a Monday night and suddenly the stadiums are alive and buzzing with record numbers of fans for that club, for that season, its great but where were all those fans the previous six months?

So the question is, are the league meetings not seen as important enough? and if so, how do they get more people taking an interest in the journey and not just the destination?

The play offs work, they generate interest and therefore money, no need to change that, but the play offs on their own will not subsidize everyone's season.

Can only speak for Swindon but a few league attendances at The Abbey matched or beat the Grand Final crowd last season.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Purely by chance due to work and getting stuck behind an accident on the m6 I ended up at Belle Vue last night, so I thought I would share my fan experience, I brought a ticket in the grandstand which was £21, now to me that is way over priced for league speedway, so I took to my seat a read the programme, around 7pm the crowd which was a good size crowd filled the stadium, the announcer said we will interview the team managers around 7.10 however belle vues team manager was working on the first bend with a rake while we were treated to 40 mins of tractor racing, no interviews, there were a family next to me with 2 very young lads who had never been to speedway before but thought they would try it, around 7.20 there was an announcement that the meeting would be delayed to let the que’s that were still outside in, however that turned out to be a bit of a lie as some rides equipment hadn’t turned up,think they were caught in the same motorway problem as me ,but by 7.40 the kids next to me had got a bit bored and quite frankly so had I, chase the ace works very well in raising some excitement in the crowd, finally what felt like forever we get what I thought was a very well thought out parade and then the racing started, 2 heats and then the tractor is back out, apparently the track was to grippy, another 2 heats then more tractor racing, at around 8.30 i had seen 4 heats and 50 mins of tractor racing, the first half the meeting was pretty much gate and go stuff with nothing happening after the first corner, the match being close kept the interest up ,we had a couple of jumped starts and riders going back to pit gate to fiddle with their bikes, more delays (make it so no mechanic allowed on track in between restarts ) then the racing livened up so they had an interval,the second half the meeting was excellent and Kings Lynn deserved their win but I just felt like a few little things added up to spoil the entertainment, the racing, chase the ace and the presentation was all great but it’s just those little things that drag it down and kill the buzz and as I said it’s too expensive, the family next to me didn’t seem that taken in by it left before the end, this is not just about Belle Vue but speedway in general 

Edited August 7, 2018 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[steve roberts]

7 hours ago, Thornaby48 said:

I have never understood why we have play offs, just copying football I think. Why not, at the end of the season have the KO cup with the top 4 teams automatically going into the quarter finals to meet the 4 surviving teams from a series of qualifying ko rounds. The top 4 would then be drawn against the other 4 and not each other until the semis.

 

...cynic as I am it was because SKY insisted on having Play-Offs because Oxford spoilt the party in the last non Play-Off season by winning the league and SKY's cameras were not present to catch the moment! 

Seriously, however, I think that it is fair to say that speedway went along with SKY's insistence that Play-Offs would make a better package providing live coverage but as we all know that particular 'marriage made in heaven' ended in divorce without actually raising the profile of the sport in the best way possible...an increase in attendance figures.

I can understand why there is a desire to have Play-Offs in one form or another (despite Oxford being 'robbed' of an opportunity in defending their crown for reasons beyond their control) but as I keep saying one has to look at the bigger picture as to why the sport has declined to such an extent that it is no longer the mighty force that it once was and introducing Play-Offs hasn't improved that situation. Speedway's problems lay much deeper than that. 

I speak to many people who use to go during my working day but for one reason or another they no longer attend. Reasons given are many and varied and many have been covered many times on this forum.

I've now exhausted this particular line of discussion and leave others to debate...just hope that Sidney starts another thread 'The Best of'...or 'Do you remember'!

Edited August 7, 2018 by steve roberts

[orion]

5 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...The Play-Offs should be the icing on the cake but when you have  no cake...

The reality is that although speedway has run with Play-Offs for 17 (?) years thru it's involvement with SKY TV it hasn't become the saviour of the sport as some may have predicted or had us believe and the decline has continued. There are many issues that need addressing but where to start is the big question. The BSPA at every post/pre season annual meeting come up with all sorts of initiatives but none apparently provide what the sport desperately needs...new fans.

Perhaps speedway was of a past time and is beyond rescue?

No one said it would be the saviour of the sport ...the decline has nothing to with having play offs ,trying to connect the two with no evindence and them working in every other sport shows how wrong that is .

As I said the decline is really easy to work out  it's because Poland and Sweden become bigger than  the uk and we  were no  could longer dictate  to riders and have every race night etc etc it's been downhill ever since ...the last bit about speedway beyond rescue is 100 % correct  I don't think  anything  can save it now .

[waytogo28]

5 hours ago, orion said:

the last bit about speedway beyond rescue is 100 % correct  I don't think  anything  can save it now .

It's pretty much how I see it now. Re-structuring with one medium sized league etc etc is NOT going to bring in new fans and grow the fanbase. Why would it when it offers more of the same strung-out racing with so many heats over within half a lap. Only another form of motorcycle racing on dirt track ovals is likely to do that. Smaller capacity 250cc or 350cc - standardised sealed machines are a must. Slower but closer racing with more likelihood of passing might catch on. But the starting area must be changed ( to stop all gardening and speed up races ) races run immediately after each other with as little delay as possible ( to avoid boring and turning off the new generation of fans ). Even the name of the sport should be changed. Without such massive changes, speedway is beyond rescue. Way past the "last chance saloon".

[steve roberts]

11 hours ago, orion said:

No one said it would be the saviour of the sport ...the decline has nothing to with having play offs ,trying to connect the two with no evindence and them working in every other sport shows how wrong that is .

As I said the decline is really easy to work out  it's because Poland and Sweden become bigger than  the uk and we  were no  could longer dictate  to riders and have every race night etc etc it's been downhill ever since ...the last bit about speedway beyond rescue is 100 % correct  I don't think  anything  can save it now .

...I think that it's more complex than that although Promoters and/or fans only have themselves to blame for part allowing that scenario developing with the demise of the second half depriving riders of extra income (something that Phil Crump commented upon at the time) and the fans reluctance to support traditional Individual/Best Pairs/4TT Meetings etc. Who could blame riders looking elsewhere for extra income to subsidise their British takings? Malcolm Simmons had been quoted as saying that riders didn't need to look abroad for rides because riding in Britain gave them a full programme of meetings and means of a pretty good level of income.

 Speedway's decline is commonly accepted  as taking place during the middle/late eighties (well before the foreign leagues took hold) and started to gain momentum with attendances dropping off as we entered the new millennium. From a personal perspective I can only relate to where I used to stand on the pits bend at Cowley and with each passing year it was noticeable how the crowds dropped off with mini-revivals interrupting the general decline.

The introduction of the GPs was always going to cause issues with the domestic programme with some riders prioritising their race commitments but more importantly clubs no longer benefitted from the 'lump sum' that a Wembley and/or Bradford Final would generate. There were many concerns made public at the time by observers within the sport how dramatically it would change the face of British Speedway and the BSPA just sat back despite it affecting their business and/or assets an/or race nights etc etc. allowing the GP to dictate it's own terms.

The Play-Offs were introduced (SKY's insistence?) in an attempt to re-construct the league programme but the agenda was very different to other sports (football, in particular, as has been highlighted by a number of posts) of which many enjoyed far greater media interest to which speedway just could not compete with. The question that begs answering is where did all the SKY money go? There are assumptions and/or opinions but speedway's lack of re-investing should be questioned but I am not, obviously, aware of the facts behind the 'lost' money. Perhaps someone could enlighten?

It's a real conundrum but the sport really needs to re-invent itself but where to start is the real problem. Does four riders encircling an oval track over four laps grab people's imagination now or would it be the case that race length's/number of riders per race/handicapping/deeper and/or slicker tracks...or indeed tarmaced tracks.../standardising engines and/or bikes solve any of the problems and re-ignite people's expectations? Is it viewed as being un-environmentally friendly by the population at large? Personally I doubt it but what do I know.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

56 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

It's pretty much how I see it now. Re-structuring with one medium sized league etc etc is NOT going to bring in new fans and grow the fanbase. Why would it when it offers more of the same strung-out racing with so many heats over within half a lap. Only another form of motorcycle racing on dirt track ovals is likely to do that. Smaller capacity 250cc or 350cc - standardised sealed machines are a must. Slower but closer racing with more likelihood of passing might catch on. But the starting area must be changed ( to stop all gardening and speed up races ) races run immediately after each other with as little delay as possible ( to avoid boring and turning off the new generation of fans ). Even the name of the sport should be changed. Without such massive changes, speedway is beyond rescue. Way past the "last chance saloon".

...Interesting views and I have watched speedway via you-tube and/or DVDs from the so-called Pioneer Years and it seemed so much rawer back then and less refined. Perhaps modern speedway is too clinical and less 'dirty' but I guess that would be a backward step in this modern age? I'm just glad that I followed the sport during it's last "Golden Era' which is commonly accepted as being the seventies but even then one could see changes taking place as the decade advanced towards the eighties and beyond.

[TesarRacing]

11 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Purely by chance due to work and getting stuck behind an accident on the m6 I ended up at Belle Vue last night, so I thought I would share my fan experience..................

Good report and post Dean. Do you happen to know how much it is for children at BV? Just thinking £42 + kids entrance is a lot of money for families.

[Lefty]

..... and £3.00 to park your car!

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

18 minutes ago, TesarRacing said:

Good report and post Dean. Do you happen to know how much it is for children at BV? Just thinking £42 + kids entrance is a lot of money for families.

£8 for children, £48 family ticket in grandstand 

[marko]

Something else not helping is that every time you see a video on youtube from speedway portal or speedway gb the tracks are dry, they are already down to the base on the inside even after just a couple of heats, you cant expect the track to soak up and store water when there is nothing to soak it up, in the summer you get dust as we have seen a lot recently, but at least the meeting can go on, and providing the vision of the riders isn't overly impacted its safe, but if tracks continue like this, when we start getting the wetter whether in September and October, meetings will be rained off left, right and centre because the rain will just sit there, nothing to soak it up and therefore you cant scrub the wet shale off because there isn't anything of substance to scrape off.

What on earth is going on? are promoters en bloc refusing to buy any more shale in the hope that some miracle will present itself as a cheaper alternative? 

[moxey63]

12 hours ago, THE DEAN MACHINE said:

Purely by chance due to work and getting stuck behind an accident on the m6 I ended up at Belle Vue last night, so I thought I would share my fan experience, I brought a ticket in the grandstand which was £21, now to me that is way over priced for league speedway, so I took to my seat a read the programme, around 7pm the crowd which was a good size crowd filled the stadium, the announcer said we will interview the team managers around 7.10 however belle vues team manager was working on the first bend with a rake while we were treated to 40 mins of tractor racing, no interviews, there were a family next to me with 2 very young lads who had never been to speedway before but thought they would try it, around 7.20 there was an announcement that the meeting would be delayed to let the que’s that were still outside in, however that turned out to be a bit of a lie as some rides equipment hadn’t turned up,think they were caught in the same motorway problem as me ,but by 7.40 the kids next to me had got a bit bored and quite frankly so had I, chase the ace works very well in raising some excitement in the crowd, finally what felt like forever we get what I thought was a very well thought out parade and then the racing started, 2 heats and then the tractor is back out, apparently the track was to grippy, another 2 heats then more tractor racing, at around 8.30 i had seen 4 heats and 50 mins of tractor racing, the first half the meeting was pretty much gate and go stuff with nothing happening after the first corner, the match being close kept the interest up ,we had a couple of jumped starts and riders going back to pit gate to fiddle with their bikes, more delays (make it so no mechanic allowed on track in between restarts ) then the racing livened up so they had an interval,the second half the meeting was excellent and Kings Lynn deserved their win but I just felt like a few little things added up to spoil the entertainment, the racing, chase the ace and the presentation was all great but it’s just those little things that drag it down and kill the buzz and as I said it’s too expensive, the family next to me didn’t seem that taken in by it left before the end, this is not just about Belle Vue but speedway in general 

An interesting account by an ex-rider who has experienced both sides of the fence. The family of new attendees will not be back in a hurry.  Seriously, I find it insulting when there's a delay to prepare the track when they've had enough time to do it before the event. What was the problem, a sinkhole just appeared at 7.25? Even older fans become bored by the constant breaks between heats, as work that really should have been already done is now crucial for the match to take place. The speedway may be fine, but such things wear you down... like the false starts and re-starts. It should be a slick show. And to keep the new people through the gate that actually give it a try, have a way to show them how speedway scoring works. Riders going round and round does get boring if you don't know what's happening. Not as boring as track grading, but boring non-the-less. Even in a brand new stadium with brilliant racing, speedway doesn't half seem shoddy at times.  

Edited August 8, 2018 by moxey63

[waytogo28]

2 minutes ago, marko said:

Something else not helping is that every time you see a video on youtube from speedway portal or speedway gb the tracks are dry, they are already down to the base on the inside even after just a couple of heats, you cant expect the track to soak up and store water when there is nothing to soak it up, in the summer you get dust as we have seen a lot recently, but at least the meeting can go on, and providing the vision of the riders isn't overly impacted its safe, but if tracks continue like this, when we start getting the wetter whether in September and October, meetings will be rained off left, right and centre because the rain will just sit there, nothing to soak it up and therefore you cant scrub the wet shale off because there isn't anything of substance to scrape off.

What on earth is going on? are promoters en bloc refusing to buy any more shale in the hope that some miracle will present itself as a cheaper alternative? 

 

4 minutes ago, marko said:

What on earth is going on? are promoters en bloc refusing to buy any more shale in the hope that some miracle will present itself as a cheaper alternative? 

That is another problem of the BSPA. They linger on slowly hoping for the miracle that will draw in substantial numbers of new fans.

[moxey63]

31 minutes ago, waytogo28 said:

 

That is another problem of the BSPA. They linger on slowly hoping for the miracle that will draw in substantial numbers of new fans.

That "miracle" has been and gone. It was Sky Sports.