GWC Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 12 minutes ago, New Science said: I can't be having this idea that's fans can't identify with their team because they ride for other clubs. Its 2018 riders ride all over Europe for various clubs. Bartosz Zmarzlik is hero worshiped in Gorzow. Do anybody have a problem that he rides for Elit Vetlanda ? No , its just part of modern speedway. The days of top British riders like Michael Lee just riding in Britain for 1 team are gone, we need to get used to it, its not going to change. To me the days of top riders pulling their weight consistently in UK no longer seemed the case and has been a trend for several years. Watch the same guys in Poland and Sweden and you see a totally different approach and rider. Mind if you are earning 10 times more in Poland then that would encourage you to put in the effort. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daytripper Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, moxey63 said: You can't commit full effort to everything you do, so why should speedway riders be able to do it. They often have numerous clubs, so which one isn't getting their full whack. Is it Britain, Sweden - where I've heard they can earn 10 times more? Surely let's look at the crowds. I know this isn't the main cause, but Sweden and Poland seem to be enjoying their speedway judging by their attendances. Have we in this country been left as third choice, riders perhaps using their tired mood to race in this league and not trying as hard. It all adds up. Deep inside their minds, British fans wonder if their rider loves their club as much as their Swedish or Polish one. Then the fan begins to think... "why should I support my club?" They aren't my team, just agency boys on another paypacket. I told someone the other day about some of speedway's problems - and they laughed about the rules they allow. Never mind about fans being disillusioned - do the riders feel less energised to actually put in a full effort when a stadium is almost empty? It says a bit about where we are. You need a crowd, a bit of banter. You need tribalism, otherwise, you have no need to cheer. Riders need to marry into a one-team ethic, otherwise they can wander off and ply their trades in foreign climbs. British speedway needs to save itself. One big league, proper rules, one-club men, a sense that fans are supporting a set of lads and this set of lads wants to repay that set of fans. Simple. Another barrel of bilge from the chip on the shoulder meaner who can’t come to terms w it’s the idea of actually having to pay to go in. Are you genuinely unaware that some Polish clubs have major financial problems , almost to the point of bankruptcy in some cases ? Are you genuinely unaware that certain Swedish riders are owed a lot of money by clubs with cash flow problems ? Are you genuinely unaware that there are mere handful of British riders riding for Polish or Swedish teams on a regular basis, but the vast majority don’t ? The fact is that Polish and Swedish Speedway is being affected by pretty much the same problems that affect British Speedway . They are perhaps 15 years behind us in terms of the size of the problem but they are undoubtedly on the same slope, in the sense of income falling behind e xpediture. The is no doubt that British Speedway is facing an existential crisis with a complex variety of problems, but for you to keep pretending that there are 1980’s answers to 2018 problems is nonsense. Still if you enjoy your echo chamber, so be it. Edited July 9, 2018 by Daytripper 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, New Science said: I can't be having this idea that's fans can't identify with their team because they ride for other clubs. Its 2018 riders ride all over Europe for various clubs. Bartosz Zmarzlik is hero worshiped in Gorzow. Do anybody have a problem that he rides for Elit Vetlanda ? No , its just part of modern speedway. The days of top British riders like Michael Lee just riding in Britain for 1 team are gone, we need to get used to it, its not going to change. If you are happy with that, and I suspect you still attend, then that's fine. But this, I feel, is one of the reasons the belonging to one team has gone. It put me off. How many others? But we'll never know if they just disappear, or they're being encouraged not to post anything negative that will hurt the few that still attend and are told to go and do something else. We want a serious sport, to keep what we have on the terraces and perhaps make it credible to potential new fans. When Nigel Pearson says "He's riding here tonight, for someone in Sweden tomorrow, Denmark on Wednesday..." I got a bit cold and feel nauseous If they were doing it in foreign individual meetings, that would be fine, but I'd have felt betrayed if Peter Collins was allowed to do this. In fact, he couldn't even enter the World Championship when he quit Britain in 1981... and he was the Champion five years before. How standards have dropped. Edited July 9, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Daytripper said: Another barrel of bilge from the chip on the shoulder meaner who can’t come to terms w it’s the idea of actually having to pay to go in. Are you genuinely unaware that some Polish clubs have major financial problems , almost to the point of bankruptcy in some cases ? Are you genuinely unaware that certain Swedish riders are owed a lot of money by clubs with cash flow problems ? Are you genuinely unaware that there are mere handful of British riders riding for Polish or Swedish teams on a regular basis, but the vast majority don’t ? The fact is that Polish and Swedish Speedway is being affected by pretty much the same problems that affect British Speedway . They are perhaps 15 years behind us in terms of the size of the problem but they are undoubtedly on the same slope, in the sense of income falling behind e xpediture. The is no doubt that British Speedway is facing an existential crisis with a complex variety of problems, but for you to keep pretending that there are 1980’s answers to 2018 problems is nonsense. Still if you enjoy your echo chamber, so be it. I thought we were chatting about the continuing decline of British speedway? I am aware of the above, but let's try to save British speedway first of all. I'll get back to Poland and Sweden if I manage that. Only got one pair of hands. Edited July 9, 2018 by moxey63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 If a rider rides in Britain he needs a second base/set up with bikes. it isn't possible to transport bikes from Poland to Britain in time for a meeting on Monday evening. One example is Częstochowa to Manchester which is a 21 hour journey + eat/sleep/bathroom breaks and etc. Hallstavik -Esbjerg is about half of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Daytripper said: Another barrel of bilge from the chip on the shoulder meaner who can’t come to terms w it’s the idea of actually having to pay to go in. Are you genuinely unaware that some Polish clubs have major financial problems , almost to the point of bankruptcy in some cases ? Are you genuinely unaware that certain Swedish riders are owed a lot of money by clubs with cash flow problems ? Are you genuinely unaware that there are mere handful of British riders riding for Polish or Swedish teams on a regular basis, but the vast majority don’t ? The fact is that Polish and Swedish Speedway is being affected by pretty much the same problems that affect British Speedway . They are perhaps 15 years behind us in terms of the size of the problem but they are undoubtedly on the same slope, in the sense of income falling behind e xpediture. The is no doubt that British Speedway is facing an existential crisis with a complex variety of problems, but for you to keep pretending that there are 1980’s answers to 2018 problems is nonsense. Still if you enjoy your echo chamber, so be it. DON'T think Polish tracks are suffering from dwindling crowds and a lack of youngsters attending meetings. Spoke to Andreas Jonsson on Saturday and says Lublin, a second division team, sell-out every meeting and have over 1,000 fans travelling to away fixtures. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 13 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said: DON'T think Polish tracks are suffering from dwindling crowds and a lack of youngsters attending meetings. Spoke to Andreas Jonsson on Saturday and says Lublin, a second division team, sell-out every meeting and have over 1,000 fans travelling to away fixtures. Think Donald Trump's supplying him with his news, Phil! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Daytripper said: Another barrel of bilge from the chip on the shoulder meaner who can’t come to terms w it’s the idea of actually having to pay to go in. Are you genuinely unaware that some Polish clubs have major financial problems , almost to the point of bankruptcy in some cases ? Are you genuinely unaware that certain Swedish riders are owed a lot of money by clubs with cash flow problems ? Are you genuinely unaware that there are mere handful of British riders riding for Polish or Swedish teams on a regular basis, but the vast majority don’t ? The fact is that Polish and Swedish Speedway is being affected by pretty much the same problems that affect British Speedway . They are perhaps 15 years behind us in terms of the size of the problem but they are undoubtedly on the same slope, in the sense of income falling behind e xpediture. The is no doubt that British Speedway is facing an existential crisis with a complex variety of problems, but for you to keep pretending that there are 1980’s answers to 2018 problems is nonsense. Still if you enjoy your echo chamber, so be it. I'll bet they sort the problems out in the next 15 years if your assessment is correct.I doubt your assessment of the situation though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 3 hours ago, moxey63 said: If you are happy with that, and I suspect you still attend, then that's fine. But this, I feel, is one of the reasons the belonging to one team has gone. It put me off. How many others? But we'll never know if they just disappear, or they're being encouraged not to post anything negative that will hurt the few that still attend and are told to go and do something else. We want a serious sport, to keep what we have on the terraces and perhaps make it credible to potential new fans. When Nigel Pearson says "He's riding here tonight, for someone in Sweden tomorrow, Denmark on Wednesday..." I got a bit cold and feel nauseous If they were doing it in foreign individual meetings, that would be fine, but I'd have felt betrayed if Peter Collins was allowed to do this. In fact, he couldn't even enter the World Championship when he quit Britain in 1981... and he was the Champion five years before. How standards have dropped. The idea of a rider sticking to one team is a thing of the past. You only have to look at the threads on this forum to see that as soon as a rider has a few below par meetings and people want him replaced . The growing change over the years is that an increasing number of fans are only interested in supporting a winning team. As soon as a team stars losing so called fans stop coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 Interesting comments from Doyle in the interview prior to the GP. When asked about getting a warning from/moving jumping at the start, he basically said it was something that had originated in the UK because "it's practically impossible to pass on most British tracks". There you have it, straight from the World Champ, Britsh tracks are crap. Fix 'em! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 50 minutes ago, E I Addio said: The idea of a rider sticking to one team is a thing of the past. You only have to look at the threads on this forum to see that as soon as a rider has a few below par meetings and people want him replaced . The growing change over the years is that an increasing number of fans are only interested in supporting a winning team. As soon as a team stars losing so called fans stop coming. I honestly don't think it SHOULD be a problem for a rider to ride for multiple teams across Europe. The important thing is that, whoever he rides for, he should be there, injuries not withstanding. If there is a clash of fixtures due to a rescheduling, the fixture that was originally scheduled for that date should take priority. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Shoe Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/8/2018 at 1:30 PM, Ray Stadia said: Surely, the way it is run now, is a franchise? That's exactly what i thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted July 9, 2018 Report Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) On 7/6/2018 at 7:49 PM, Hot Shoe said: I think the racing is excellent at the moment and at many meetings now good racing is more consistent than it was in the 60s, 70, 80s & 90s. I probably see more overtakes in an evening at Scunny now than i did in a month at Wimbledon in the 'good old days'. I keep reading from posters on here how racing in Britain is as good as it has ever been. I am struggling to find where this is ? As a sport we need up to 20 venues around the country that can showcase our great sport and make it viable. I watch Premiership speedway and the only tracks I would put in that category are Belle Vue and maybe Somerset, less said about the rest, Leicester tonight being a typical example. In the 2nd tear Scunthorpe yes, Peterborough maybe, maybe people can inform me. National League, think we can discount Stoke. Where are these 20 standout venues that we can Sheppard people into to get them to see great speedway racing and become hooked on our sport in this country and turn around its fortunes Edited July 9, 2018 by New Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 5 hours ago, New Science said: I keep reading from posters on here how racing in Britain is as good as it has ever been. I am struggling to find where this is ? As a sport we need up to 20 venues around the country that can showcase our great sport and make it viable. I watch Premiership speedway and the only tracks I would put in that category are Belle Vue and maybe Somerset, less said about the rest, Leicester tonight being a typical example. In the 2nd tear Scunthorpe yes, Peterborough maybe, maybe people can inform me. National League, think we can discount Stoke. Where are these 20 standout venues that we can Sheppard people into to get them to see great speedway racing and become hooked on our sport in this country and turn around its fortunes I don't think its any worse or better in general than it always has been. Its certainly a myth that the standard was higher 30 or 40 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mikebv Posted July 10, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said: I don't think its any worse or better in general than it always has been. Its certainly a myth that the standard was higher 30 or 40 years ago. Agreed... Watching PC blast off into the distance, like he did in many races, certainly wasn't a 'spectacular' race... Nor was watching Mauger, Olsen, Michanek etc etc do the same to '2 point reserves'.. The difference was? These guys brought a crowd in through their reputations... When these riders, and more such as Penhall, Carter, Lee etc came to your town crowds were up.. A more modern, but lesser impact of the same were Nielsen and Gunderson, with probably the last rider with any 'extra pulling power' being Jason Crump.. These guys had reputations, THEY attracted the improved crowds NOT the team who were in situ.. Those who attended may not even attend again that season, however I am sure the racing on that night was improved considerably in the eyes of the regulars by the large attendance. (Even if tangibly it probably wasn't much better than normal).. Even in the 'good old days' it was the riders riding for, and bringing success to, England into your homes via World Of Sport that generated the interest in your local team... Racing today overall is at least on a par, if not better, than all those years ago I would say, as there now is much less of a disparity between riders in the meeting/races that there once was, so not sure the racing is to blame for the Sports decline.. British Speedway has virtually 100% lost its tribal, emotional connection that fans need to follow a team sport by the ludicrous, (almost comical if it wasn't so sad) way it has ran itself... I would suggest that this is infinitely more the problem than poor racing.. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, mikebv said: Agreed... Watching PC blast off into the distance, like he did in many races, certainly wasn't a 'spectacular' race... Nor was watching Mauger, Olsen, Michanek etc etc do the same to '2 point reserves'.. The difference was? These guys brought a crowd in through their reputations... When these riders, and more such as Penhall, Carter, Lee etc came to your town crowds were up.. A more modern, but lesser impact of the same were Nielsen and Gunderson, with probably the last rider with any 'extra pulling power' being Jason Crump.. These guys had reputations, THEY attracted the improved crowds NOT the team who were in situ.. Those who attended may not even attend again that season, however I am sure the racing on that night was improved considerably in the eyes of the regulars by the large attendance. (Even if tangibly it probably wasn't much better than normal).. Even in the 'good old days' it was the riders riding for, and bringing success to, England into your homes via World Of Sport that generated the interest in your local team... Racing today overall is at least on a par, if not better, than all those years ago I would say, as there now is much less of a disparity between riders in the meeting/races that there once was, so not sure the racing is to blame for the Sports decline.. British Speedway has virtually 100% lost its tribal, emotional connection that fans need to follow a team sport by the ludicrous, (almost comical if it wasn't so sad) way it has ran itself... I would suggest that this is infinitely more the problem than poor racing.. ...plus the fact that one could associate with the riders who often rode for the same team before the points limit dictated team make-ups which was not always based upon ability but rather on a convenient workable average especially within the middle order and reserve department. The one junior per team (although admirable in conception) was a classic example. I was fortunate at Oxford and White City as I saw the development of riders thru' the old second halves and our association with sister clubs Eastbourne and Peterborough. Riders who progressed into the main body included Gordon Kennett, Malcolm Ballard (whatever happened to him?), John Davis, Richard Greer, Trevor Geer, Paul Gachet and Steve Weatherley to name a few plus many others who turned out for various other teams (Bobby McNeil and Roger Johns for example) Edited July 10, 2018 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waytogo28 Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 16 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said: DON'T think Polish tracks are suffering from dwindling crowds and a lack of youngsters attending meetings. Spoke to Andreas Jonsson on Saturday and says Lublin, a second division team, sell-out every meeting and have over 1,000 fans travelling to away fixtures. It seems clear that the problem in Poland is not a lack of fans but the ridiculous level of payment they make to riders. At a £1,000 a point even with a 10,000 crowd you barely pay the wages bill. Home & Away. Poles are paying less than £10 to get in, we have been told. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2 Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 14 hours ago, E I Addio said: The idea of a rider sticking to one team is a thing of the past. You only have to look at the threads on this forum to see that as soon as a rider has a few below par meetings and people want him replaced . The growing change over the years is that an increasing number of fans are only interested in supporting a winning team. As soon as a team stars losing so called fans stop coming. Take a look at Swindon. We won next to nothing for forty years but we are still going. We have not based our club on winning at all costs or sacking riders for lack of form, but at the same time we have not been able to keep some riders due to their averages (hence our useless Scot Nicholls’ side a few years ago). I remember a 70s team of Ashby, Hunter, Kilby, Andersson, McNeil, Bouchard and David Ashby. Both Jan Andersson and David Ashby were useless - it was Jan’s first season, and David was always a mystery! - but the team did OK in mid table and we kept it the next season and again it did OK, with Jan improving immensely. We won no trophies. The point is, keeping the same riders kept the fans happy because everyone identified with those riders. Admittedly we won most home matches (and lost most away) so that would be the only caveat, but a mid table team with continuity and more home wins than losses can be more of a commercial success over time than the “winning at all costs, use every trick in the book, constant chop and change” club (Poole). Indeed, I doubt modern Poole have kept a 1-7 from one season to the next and that their fans have ever identified with 7 riders the way Swindon’s fans of the 70s did. So, no, big names and trophies are not necessary. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 19 hours ago, New Science said: I can't be having this idea that's fans can't identify with their team because they ride for other clubs. Its 2018 riders ride all over Europe for various clubs. Bartosz Zmarzlik is hero worshiped in Gorzow. Do anybody have a problem that he rides for Elit Vetlanda ? No , its just part of modern speedway. The days of top British riders like Michael Lee just riding in Britain for 1 team are gone, we need to get used to it, its not going to change. But Zmarzlik doesn't guest for every other polish top flight club while also holding down a place in the Polish 2nd tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldyman Posted July 10, 2018 Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Having rubbish like last night's meeting on TV does nothing for the sport apart from put anyone off that may have accidentally tuned into it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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