The continuing decline of Speedway

[mikebv]

1 hour ago, Byker Biker said:

There are and have been, they got burnt by the rest of them!

A glimmer of hope though never the less...

At least one (and maybe more) can see that the current operating model isn't fit for purpose and must change...

The very simple bottom line is this...

The most important single thing the Sport needs is for the mainstream media to treat it as a bona fide sporting entity, worthy of the same column inches and air time they provide for those sports that are regarded as actually being ran with professionalism, integrity and credibility. Thus putting the Sport in the clear view of the many millions who currently seem completely oblivious to it and, at the same time, creating heroes and personalities for any curious observers to become acquainted with and possibly follow..

However.....

Speedways current operating model in the UK will 100% ALWAYS prevent this from EVER happening. No news room of any degree of standing would bring to the masses a lead headline for example of  "We'll show you later how Poole's Brady Kurtz tonight top scored for Belle Vue and helped them KO their Play Off rivals Swindon when he stepped in for The Aces No1 Craig Cook, who was elsewhere riding for Glasgow" It simply wouldn't be accepted..

Surely, given the huge lack of knowledge of the Sport out there, and the massive potential customer base to sell what is still a very marketable product, there must be an enormous opportunity for the Sport in the UK....?

Should those who run it ever eventually wake up and work together to achieve it obviously...

Edited September 11, 2018 by mikebv

[Tsunami]

3 hours ago, Skid Sprocket said:

This is 100% a genuine promoter.  I was personally given their ok to quote it. I have withheld names and club as I dont want to push my luck and say too much.  There must be other (honest) promoters who could speak up!

Yes, that can be and was the picture, but after talks a few weeks ago which ended in  chaos, there has been major movement and I think solutions have been found that are acceptable to most of them and are acceptable to proceed with for next year. All we need is for the solutions to be implemented and understood by the fans, especially those who only exist on here to vent their spleen at everything, and who all think they know the solutions, but of course have not got any capital involved.  Desperate times sometimes needs desperate measures, but current thinking is the solutions can be affordable and robust enough to stabilise the sport. Let's give it a try for a change.

[Arch Stanton]

1 hour ago, Tsunami said:

Yes, that can be and was the picture, but after talks a few weeks ago which ended in  chaos, there has been major movement and I think solutions have been found that are acceptable to most of them and are acceptable to proceed with for next year. All we need is for the solutions to be implemented and understood by the fans, especially those who only exist on here to vent their spleen at everything, and who all think they know the solutions, but of course have not got any capital involved.  Desperate times sometimes needs desperate measures, but current thinking is the solutions can be affordable and robust enough to stabilise the sport. Let's give it a try for a change.

Can you give any more details Tsunami? Is the rumour of 2 leagues, the top being akin to this years Championship, accurate?

Edited September 11, 2018 by Arch Stanton

[Grachan]

10 hours ago, Arch Stanton said:

Can you give any more details Tsunami? Is the rumour of 2 leagues, the top being akin to this years Championship, accurate?

So, dumbing down again. Always this is the answer, and always crowds drop as a result.

[moxey63]

36 minutes ago, Grachan said:

So, dumbing down again. Always this is the answer, and always crowds drop as a result.

I think the BSPA must be part of the government's austerity drive. The same values are shown to our roads - you pay more but don't necessarily get back what makes you happy, with little bits of tarmac surrounded by potholes. All the years of neglect may be irreparable.

Edited September 12, 2018 by moxey63

[Tsunami]

1 hour ago, Grachan said:

So, dumbing down again. Always this is the answer, and always crowds drop as a result.

Get real. It has to go down as we can't afford the stars. Competitive racing that is affordable is how we can continue to see speedway. Think any different and you are dreaming. 

[Grachan]

4 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Get real. It has to go down as we can't afford the stars. Competitive racing that is affordable is how we can continue to see speedway. Think any different and you are dreaming. 

Why "get real"? I think that what I said was correct. As the standard drops, so do the crowds.

And, yes, I am dreaming. Dreaming of a time when Speedway in this country was of a high enough standard to attract casual supporters. You know them? The ones who get criticised on here for not being "real fans", but pay to watch when there are decent riders on show.

Sure, there are people who are happy to see speedway at a lower standard, but, the fact is, that the lower the standard then lower the crowds. That's just the way it is.

And, surely, if Somerset, for example, want to have a big star rider then why should they not be able to have one?

 

[Tsunami]

1 minute ago, Grachan said:

Why "get real"? I think that what I said was correct. As the standard drops, so do the crowds.

And, yes, I am dreaming. Dreaming of a time when Speedway in this country was of a high enough standard to attract casual supporters. You know them? The ones who get criticised on here for not being "real fans", but pay to watch when there are decent riders on show.

Sure, there are people who are happy to see speedway at a lower standard, but, the fact is, that the lower the standard then lower the crowds. That's just the way it is.

And, surely, if Somerset, for example, want to have a big star rider then why should they not be able to have one?

 

So your solution is what ???

[Aces51]

To grow the sport needs to attract new fans and they haven't got a clue who the top stars are. It made no noticeable difference to the crowds at Belle Vue when Zagar was in the team and when he wasn't.

What we need is competitive racing, sensible rules applied consistently, professional presentation with no unavoidable delays and more latitude shown to allow riders to react, within reason, to on track situations and referees decisions. Not violence but gesticulating, handbags and a bit of theatre. 

[moxey63]

The current plight of speedway isn't new. Back in 1987, the amount of tracks that were asking fans to pledge this much or that, so they can be sure of seeing their beloved boys racing next season, is very much like today. There has always been a belief from promoters that fans will dig deeper into their pockets to keep the track alive. No need for them to try and promote. For so many seasons we had it at Belle Vue it was like that boy who cried wolf. Play on the generosity of the fans when all else fails.

But how far the few still attending will be able to afford in future if they're having to bail out for the lost fans? 

Edited September 12, 2018 by moxey63

[Grachan]

3 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

So your solution is what ???

I'm a paying customer. I don't need to provide a solution. That's not my responsibility because I am no longer a "real fan". I'm the guy sat at home watching the telly who needs to feel inspired to go. Weakening the league even further will not do that.

All I know is that, at the moment, a sport that used to inspire me to go every week now barely gets me out of the house.

Here's my idea. Yet another dumb "save speedway" idea.

Have the league at Championship level if that is what people want - ie have Championship averages. But, also, have a high points limit so that teams who want to be strng can be so. I know it's a weird idea, but not having all teams equal might actually attract fans in to watch good sides.

So, make appoints limit of, say, 45 or 46 - just to give a bit of leeway in team building for the stronger sides and make them attractive. Then use the Championship averages if you so wish.

So, what do we do with riders who only have a top flight average? How about giving them an average based on reality that won't force them out of the UK?

Take a random sample of 7 riders who ride in both leagues - Craig Cook, Richie Worrall, Nick Morris, Adam Ellis, Zach Wajtknecht, Chris Harris, Rory Schlein. THe averages converted at 0.82.

So, if you compare their averages in both league, the conversion is about 0.8. So, for riders only riding in the top league, give them a 0.8 conversion. This gives Jason Doyle an average of 12.1 - so, just to be sensible, make 12.00 the limit. Still pretty high, yeah, but still worth having if Swindon's title win of last year  is anything to go on.

So:

Championship averages

Points limit of 45

Conversion rate of 0.8. Maximum average of 12.00.

Won't solve the World, but might stop it ending completely.

[moxey63]

6 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

To grow the sport needs to attract new fans and they haven't got a clue who the top stars are. It made no noticeable difference to the crowds at Belle Vue when Zagar was in the team and when he wasn't.

What we need is competitive racing, sensible rules applied consistently, professional presentation with no unavoidable delays and more latitude shown to allow riders to react, within reason, to on track situations and referees decisions. Not violence but gesticulating, handbags and a bit of theatre. 

Tuning in occasionally to the Swedish and Polish leagues, I don't really notice better racing. Alright, the stars are there, but I doubt they are the stars of the past that used to attract thousands even for a meaningless individual meeting. Today's stars, compared to even 10 years ago, are plastic stars. If a speedway star can  be manufactured - we have them. British speedway will be better served in the next five-to-10 years by riders it can afford. Stars will come from that. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by moxey63

[Tsunami]

12 minutes ago, Grachan said:

I'm a paying customer. I don't need to provide a solution. That's not my responsibility because I am no longer a "real fan". I'm the guy sat at home watching the telly who needs to feel inspired to go. Weakening the league even further will not do that.

All I know is that, at the moment, a sport that used to inspire me to go every week now barely gets me out of the house.

Here's my idea. Yet another dumb "save speedway" idea.

Have the league at Championship level if that is what people want - ie have Championship averages. But, also, have a high points limit so that teams who want to be strng can be so. I know it's a weird idea, but not having all teams equal might actually attract fans in to watch good sides.

So, make appoints limit of, say, 45 or 46 - just to give a bit of leeway in team building for the stronger sides and make them attractive. Then use the Championship averages if you so wish.

So, what do we do with riders who only have a top flight average? How about giving them an average based on reality that won't force them out of the UK?

Take a random sample of 7 riders who ride in both leagues - Craig Cook, Richie Worrall, Nick Morris, Adam Ellis, Zach Wajtknecht, Chris Harris, Rory Schlein. THe averages converted at 0.82.

So, if you compare their averages in both league, the conversion is about 0.8. So, for riders only riding in the top league, give them a 0.8 conversion. This gives Jason Doyle an average of 12.1 - so, just to be sensible, make 12.00 the limit. Still pretty high, yeah, but still worth having if Swindon's title win of last year  is anything to go on.

So:

Championship averages

Points limit of 45

Conversion rate of 0.8. Maximum average of 12.00.

Won't solve the World, but might stop it ending completely.

If you had given it more thought you would realise that your solution would kill the sport in less than 1 year. Even when the big money was coming in from SKY, no team with the exception of say Poole, could afford each team to be strengthened by going with a 45 points limit. It was and isn't doable. I've sat at BSPA AGM's and listened to the pipe dreams of some clubs who, because they could afford it, the rest of their league should be made to afford it and they were only talking about 43 and 43.5 points limits. The higher the limit also increases the chance of employment with more money needed/requested by the lower riders who would then result with a lower average and would want a higher points or some form of guarantees. It  would not work. Using Doyle as your conversion example is not realistic, as it is his level that we can't afford so why make him seem desirable. Could agree with your other examples but with the lower points limit only. Cut your cloth to what you can afford and produce good close racing, and that is the only sensible option on the table.

[BWitcher]

19 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Cut your cloth to what you can afford and produce good close racing, 

Bless.

15+ years of 'cutting the cloth'.

One day it might dawn it's not working.

[TesarRacing]

14 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Yes, that can be and was the picture, but after talks a few weeks ago which ended in  chaos, there has been major movement and I think solutions have been found that are acceptable to most of them and are acceptable to proceed with for next year. All we need is for the solutions to be implemented and understood by the fans, especially those who only exist on here to vent their spleen at everything, and who all think they know the solutions, but of course have not got any capital involved.  Desperate times sometimes needs desperate measures, but current thinking is the solutions can be affordable and robust enough to stabilise the sport. Let's give it a try for a change.

That doesn't sound terribly positive to me Dave. Talks that end in chaos, solutions that you think are acceptable to most, solutions that need to be understood by the fans. It doesn't sound great. This isn't dig at you as i know you do a lot for the sport but I am not filled with confidence that a workable solution has been found.

I have said this before, for me the only way forward is for the sport to go back to being semi-professional. A lot of people won't agree but I can't see how the decline can be reversed without the sport running at a level that families can find it affordable. It has always been a family sport and I have 3 generations in my family that still go and love it but I can afford it - most can't.

It makes be very sad with the involvement I have had over the years and the enjoyment I have got from the sport but next season will be the most important for many years and I hope promotions, riders and fans can all find a way forward. 

[Skid Sprocket]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:26 PM, Skid Sprocket said:

 

Speedway in the future;  Where are we going? A lot of you will be aware that meetings are taking place to discuss the future of speedway in the UK. Ideas  and proposals are being put forward and arguments are being had. The topics range from league formats, how many riders in a team to how many races in a match. We all know the sport is in trouble. Crowds are down all over the country and costs are on the up and up. Everyone has an opinion on the issues within the sport but no one, it appears, has the answers. Since I attended my first A.G.M. last November I've been astounded at the lack of unity, cohesion and clarity within the sport and nothing has changed since. Decision are made behind closed doors without explanation to the rest of the (promoters) association or the fans and conspiracy theories then abound as to what has happened and why. So what do we do? Meetings keep getting planned, arguments being had. The sport is crying out for a resolution, a new way forward, positive leadership with new ideas and energetic leadership, not more of the same, quick fix ideas without thinking of the future. Will it happen? Will someone step forward from the gloom and take the sport forward? I simply don't know. I dearly hope so for the sport I love but there are massive dark clouds around and there doesn't appear to be a change in the weather very soon. We need to listen to each other, the riders and the fans and formulate a framework for the good of the sport as a whole. Let's hope a storm is coming.

Can I drag us all back to what I hope some will see as a positive sign at "head office". One promoter seeing what he thinks is wrong with speedway today and prepared to seek opinions of all concerned.  Show your promoter the above statement and ask if they will give their backing to a more open minded future.  Its ok discussing on here what is wrong but only promoters can make changes. Lets have a few more promoters statements, it is us paying supporters that keep them in their job!

Edited September 12, 2018 by Skid Sprocket

[Tsunami]

7 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Bless.

15+ years of 'cutting the cloth'.

One day it might dawn it's not working.

and your workable and affordable solution is what ?

Explain your 15 years ?  That would only happen if the points limit was below the 42 points limit

 

[moxey63]

13 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Bless.

15+ years of 'cutting the cloth'.

One day it might dawn it's not working.

There are really two options. Cut cloth and try to rebuild the sport by using affordable riders... or run only league matches - one home and one away - so clubs don't lose that much money if the stars actually return. Won't be as costly as running for seven months.

Edited September 12, 2018 by moxey63

[waytogo28]

18 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Cut your cloth to what you can afford and produce good close racing, and that is the only sensible option on the table.

Hopefully, this will the yardstick used for any 2019 league set up. If it is 2 x 14 team leagues with no doubling down and is devoid of the cream of 2018 ( who no club can truly afford ) it might hold the current supporters ( and even bring back some supporters like myself ) whether it can attract new supporters I feel much more uncertain ( without better marketing in some way that is affordable ). Big name teams as in Sweden - do attract better crowds but failed to do so here in the Sky money days.

[Grachan]

45 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

If you had given it more thought you would realise that your solution would kill the sport in less than 1 year. Even when the big money was coming in from SKY, no team with the exception of say Poole, could afford each team to be strengthened by going with a 45 points limit. It was and isn't doable. I've sat at BSPA AGM's and listened to the pipe dreams of some clubs who, because they could afford it, the rest of their league should be made to afford it and they were only talking about 43 and 43.5 points limits. The higher the limit also increases the chance of employment with more money needed/requested by the lower riders who would then result with a lower average and would want a higher points or some form of guarantees. It  would not work. Using Doyle as your conversion example is not realistic, as it is his level that we can't afford so why make him seem desirable. Could agree with your other examples but with the lower points limit only. Cut your cloth to what you can afford and produce good close racing, and that is the only sensible option on the table.

If you had give my post more though, you would see that each team would NOT be strengthened. All the teams in the top flight would be weakened. But it gives them leeway to have strong sides and stops it going down completely to CL level - plus you get the "illusion" of the high points limit to keep people happy.

With a conversion rate of 0.8, all the teams in the top league would average over 50 at present if that is applied to their current 1-7.

Why is the conversion rate not realistic? It is based on a random sample of riders using their actual rolling averages.

Cook: PL 7.64 - CL 10.23 = 74.68%

Worrall: 5.81 - 7.62 = 76.24%

Morris: 6.91 - 8.83 = 78.25%

Ellis: 6.49 - 7.92 = 81.94%

Wajknecht: 4.33 - 5.24 = 82.64%

Harris: 7.05 - 8.11 = 86.93%

Schlein: 8.00 - 8.79 = 91.01%

Average percentage = 81.67%. Perfect for a 0.8 conversion factor.

Doyle at 9.69 converts to 12.1 so 12.00 is pretty fair. Oh, and he's already desireable to fans. Because he's the World Champion. So why shouldn't Somerset have him if they feel it is within their budget?