orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hawk127 said: If that Is the best you have it confirms what I said. I run a successful business and just enjoy reading pathetic responses like yours. Time to do something interesting so I will leave you to your arguments. So you still can't answer the question and now you are going to punch and run again ? I hope in this successful business that you run you never took 50 % of the income out of it with no idea how to replace it . Edited August 20, 2018 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 29 minutes ago, orion said: So you still can't answer the question and now you are going to punch and run again ? I hope in this successful business that you run you never took 50 % of the income out of it with no idea how to replace it . ...you're fine one when it comes to not answering questions. Still waiting for your response to my earlier question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, steve roberts said: ...you're fine one when it comes to not answering questions. Still waiting for your response to my earlier question? What was it again Steve ? not 100 minus 50 ? someone already found that a bit hard to work out Edited August 20, 2018 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, orion said: What was it again Steve ? 100 -50 ? Yes and you know full well despite your attempted deflection of same with your usual cryptic non-sensical response...par for the course really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, steve roberts said: Yes and you know full well despite your attempted deflection of same with your usual cryptic non-sensical response...par for the course really. Not much can be done Steve ..the horse has already bolted , The only plan has been to weaken the league cut cots etc and the crowds have fallen as the standard has . No money in the sport to get thou's riders back so we will just carry on with this slow death . I think all teams should be forced to run junior teams and matches be ran after the main match ( second half's ! your like that ) and more money put in at grass root levels to get more people taking up the sport Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, orion said: Not much can be done Steve ..the horse has already bolted , The only plan has been to weaken the league cut cots etc and the crowds have fallen as the standard has . No money in the sport to get thou's riders back so we will just carry on with this slow death . I think all teams should be forced to run junior teams and matches be ran after the main match ( second half's ! your like that ) and more money put in at grass root levels to get more people taking up the sport Okay that's fair enough...at least we can both move on now having given both our views/opinions regarding where the sport goes from here despite differing opinions. I would agree Junior matches because without the right incentives and proper direction where will the next generation of riders come from? I recall reading an Interview with Jan O Pedersen who attempted to set up a proper training school structure in the UK but was met with general apathy from the powers that be and the opportunity was lost. Both Denmark and Sweden had/has a thriving 50cc scene which had/has produced many riders who went on to become World Class competitors The Grasstrack scene often produced talented motorcyclists who then progressed to speedway but, unfortunately, Grasstrack racing in the UK appears to be at a very low ebb like it's big sister. In the last couple of years I attended a couple of events locally and they were both pretty dismal affairs I have to say! Edited August 20, 2018 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, orion said: But we had guests when speedway was massive ..it ludicrous to think that a team who are not champions can win the champions league but guess what it happens in football . What about Cricket ? they have a rule that when you they show a video review you can be given not out even when you are . As I said before you get hold any sport and find so called ludicrous rules but as the champions league shows it does not always stop crowds coming Look at this year ..let have fixed race nights so we have less guests ..so they do it and then the fans moan that they what there own race night back even if it means having a team full of guests .. When Speedway was massive it was down to far many other reasons than just the racing.... And it's National TV coverage focused on International and Individual events which invariably had British winners... What you got served up at your local track was somewhat different, however you only found out riders were missing when you had paid to get in, not well in advance like happens now via forums and social media. And moaned to those 10 or so around you, not the 1000's who read websites like today... The Champions League can get won by a club that are not that Countries Champion, but so what? It provides many more of the best teams in the same competition, giving success in this competition far more kudos than in its previous guise when teams could reach the semis by just beating a few Romanian ferret smugglers or Albanian goat herders... In British Speedway you can cherry pick riders from any of your competitors to improve your team and help you be successful, even if the help they provide directly results in their own team ultimately losing out on success themselves.. Just think about how you would sell that concept to a wider Sporting audience, in the hope it would sound credible and attract them, especially in a 24/7 modern media age.. It would take some marketing guru to work that one.... Edited August 20, 2018 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, mikebv said: The Champions League can get won by a club that are not that Countries Champion, but so what? It provides many more of the best teams in the same competition, giving success in this competition far more kudos than in its previous guise when teams could reach the semis by just beating a few Romanian ferret smugglers or Albanian goat herders... And so what if Doyle guests for puk ? better that beating some junior ( Romanian ferret smuggler ) who has replaced him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, orion said: And so what if Doyle guests for puk ? better that beating some junior ( Romanian ferret smuggler ) who has replaced him Because Doyle could come in and score points for a team that's vying for his own team's qualifying spot and could score the point that puts his own team out of contention for the play-offs. Surely you can see the lack of credibility in that. And the junior will replace the #7. The heat leader will be replaced by his team's next lowest average rider. Edited August 20, 2018 by Barney Rabbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Barney Rabbit said: Because Doyle could come in and score points for a team that's vying for his own team's qualifying spot and could score the point that puts his own team out of contention for the play-offs. Surely you can see the lack of credibility in that. And the junior will replace the #7. The heat leader will be replaced by his team's next lowest average rider. Number one will still out of the side and a junior will be coming into the side no matter how you dress it up ...Tell me if people care so much about credibility who would get the biggest crowd ...A. Doyle replaced by a Junior or B Doyle replaced by Woffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, orion said: Number one will still out of the side and a junior will be coming into the side no matter how you dress it up ...Tell me if people care so much about credibility who would get the biggest crowd ...A. Doyle replaced by a Junior or B Doyle replaced by Woffy I don't know because I haven't gone round and canvassed folk at a meeting where a guest #1 was used and asked them if they'd still have been there if a junior rider who could ride the track, doubling-up anyway and possibly every bit as good as the team's regular #7 had come in at reserve. Many 2nd highest average riders are capable of beating an opposing #1 anyway, especially at home, and there was a time that people would turn up to see the top men beaten by 'lesser' riders. And, quite frankly, since Woffy isn't an option, I can't see any rider currently riding in the top tier making much difference to the crowd anyway. And, as I posted, Doyle would not be replaced by a junior since that junior would not ride against the opposing #1 in a programmed ride as Doyle would have done. In effect, there would be a series of replacements culminating in the junior replacing the #7. Edited August 20, 2018 by Barney Rabbit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Barney Rabbit said: I don't know because I haven't gone round and canvassed folk You don't have canvassed anyone the answer is b .its amazing that someone could think that a world champion missing would not have an effect on the crowd .its easy see why speedway is in trouble when people think like that . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rabbit Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, orion said: You don't have canvassed anyone the answer is b .its amazing that someone could think that a world champion missing would not have an effect on the crowd .its easy see why speedway is in trouble when people think like that . That's not what you asked and that's not what I answered. I agree that Woffy, if he were available, would put a few bums on seats but he's not available so not in the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisperer Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) Is it time to wake up? Are the rest of the world v Warburton's still arguing? Edited August 21, 2018 by Whisperer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, mikebv said: When Speedway was massive it was down to far many other reasons than just the racing.... And it's National TV coverage focused on International and Individual events which invariably had British winners... What you got served up at your local track was somewhat different, however you only found out riders were missing when you had paid to get in, not well in advance like happens now via forums and social media. And moaned to those 10 or so around you, not the 1000's who read websites like today... The Champions League can get won by a club that are not that Countries Champion, but so what? It provides many more of the best teams in the same competition, giving success in this competition far more kudos than in its previous guise when teams could reach the semis by just beating a few Romanian ferret smugglers or Albanian goat herders... In British Speedway you can cherry pick riders from any of your competitors to improve your team and help you be successful, even if the help they provide directly results in their own team ultimately losing out on success themselves.. Just think about how you would sell that concept to a wider Sporting audience, in the hope it would sound credible and attract them, especially in a 24/7 modern media age.. It would take some marketing guru to work that one.... ...yes it's inconcievable today to think that once Great Britain and/or England once ruled the speedway world. No accident that the formation of the old Second Division helped propel that. It has been suggested that the Danes (in particular Hans Nielsen and Erik Gundersen) becoming so dominant during the middle.late eighties that the media began to loose interest in the sport...and of course the Yanks. By the time Gary Havelock won the Individual Championship (1992) the momentum had been long lost. Edited August 21, 2018 by steve roberts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spl77 Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 hours ago, orion said: Number one will still out of the side and a junior will be coming into the side no matter how you dress it up ...Tell me if people care so much about credibility who would get the biggest crowd ...A. Doyle replaced by a Junior or B Doyle replaced by Woffy That proves that speedway has lost its team identity with the wider community. If it still had a proper team identity and linked to the local community the gate wouldn't be massively hit as the supporters of the team would attend and get behind it real backs to the wall stuff. My own personal view and I've seen it many times is your team made weaker by injury pulls together with the crowd and pulls off the result. The problem is now your riders are not your riders and that tight bond that riders have to a club is lost because tomorrow those team mates could be on the opposite sides of the pits. This in turn reduces the attachment that the fans have to the teams and results in lower crowds. I know orion doesn't want to hear this but I am on of 15 to 20 guys who used to attend week in week out come rain or shine no matter how strong or week our team or the visitors were. The reason none of us attend anymore is a direct result of doubling up and the guest fest speedway that is served up. Possibly the only way to bring attention to the sport now would be that all riders are on central BSPA contracts and on a Sunday afternoon a live draw is made as to what teams those riders ride for in that coming week........ To be fair it's not far off that type of lottery now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 Interesting (or I think so!) that when Oxford Stadium had a snooker room after one particular meeting (I think that it had been abandoned due to the weather) Per Sorensen and, I think, Nigel De'Ath were enjoying a game on the table next to me...would that happened nowadays (certainly not at Cowley of course) with riders spending time with the fans after a meeting with all the travelling backwards and forwards to Europe that they are required to partake in today's climate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, orion said: You don't have canvassed anyone the answer is b .its amazing that someone could think that a world champion missing would not have an effect on the crowd .its easy see why speedway is in trouble when people think like that . You've hit the nail on the head again. All the world champions that had to retire over time took so many bums off seats - Fundin, Briggs, Mauger, Collins, Penhall, Olsen, Rickardsson, Crump... The list of characters and crowd pullers is endless. Sadly, no one in current day racing holds their puling power. Woffinden and Doyle, with respect, just don't have it. Edited August 21, 2018 by moxey63 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 10 hours ago, mikebv said: When Speedway was massive it was down to far many other reasons than just the racing.... 1 When speedway was massive, looking back, it was still easy to find people who didn't like it, didn't attend and thought it was a bit silly. However, unlike nowadays, they weren't ex-fans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Spl77 said: That proves that speedway has lost its team identity with the wider community. If it still had a proper team identity and linked to the local community the gate wouldn't be massively hit as the supporters of the team would attend and get behind it real backs to the wall stuff. My own personal view and I've seen it many times is your team made weaker by injury pulls together with the crowd and pulls off the result. The problem is now your riders are not your riders and that tight bond that riders have to a club is lost because tomorrow those team mates could be on the opposite sides of the pits. This in turn reduces the attachment that the fans have to the teams and results in lower crowds. I know orion doesn't want to hear this but I am on of 15 to 20 guys who used to attend week in week out come rain or shine no matter how strong or week our team or the visitors were. The reason none of us attend anymore is a direct result of doubling up and the guest fest speedway that is served up. Possibly the only way to bring attention to the sport now would be that all riders are on central BSPA contracts and on a Sunday afternoon a live draw is made as to what teams those riders ride for in that coming week........ To be fair it's not far off that type of lottery now! Your going a bit ott in what your saying .Who was missing in last nights matches in the premier league .Who had guests ? as I said before swindon have only made one change this year and kept 5 of the same riders they had from last year .Belle Vue and Wolves have hardly made any changes this year and have a lot of the same riders from last year as well .I think these teams made more changes 30 years ago . Speedway made a effort this year after fans kept moaning about guests, riders missing etc and in a way it's been lot better in terms of teams being the same week in week out .the trouble is all we had then was people wanting go back to riding on Friday night's etc when half the teams would be missing .the bottom line is you really can't win with speedway fans . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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