The continuing decline of Speedway

[chunky]

44 minutes ago, orion said:

Not really. A team that has say a Doyle or a Lambert and  you  then replaced them with a junior the crowd is going to go down by 150 to 300  and that  will cripple clubs .it's same the old story people putting up ideas but with no thinking about the money side .it's the same with take away the play offs and why don't we a play off cup !. Yet again your plan is thinking that the fans don't care who they watch .people have left because the standard of rider has dropped 

I agree, and whatever way you look at it, you are effectively replacing a heat-leader with a junior.  Heaven forbid you are two heat-leaders short...

Not being negative, but adding to a point I made earlier regarding this situation, here are the likely scenarios:

The loss of a star name (or names) can certainly cause spectators to stay away.

Replacing a heat leader with a junior drastically weakens a team, so the resulting contest is likely to be "no contest".  That can drive away spectators.

With an uncompetitive junior (or juniors) on display, the quality of the racing will probably suffer. That can drive away spectators.

The key to competitive sport is confidence.  Particularly in a sport like speedway, where one is basically competing on a individual basis, throwing kids in at the deep end can destroy their career before it even begins.  We have seen that all too often, and certainly back in the 80's when they introduced the compulsory junior in the BL.  The vast majority of the kids never did anything in the sport, and it wasn't because they weren't good enough; it was because they had the stuffing knocked out of them, and they lost all confidence.  I have seen that happen to many talented youngsters in my own sport of darts too, so I am very familiar with the problems it causes.

So, loss of stars, one-sided match with crap racing, and irreparable damage to a youngster's confidence and career...  Is that really a solution?

Steve

[GWC]

49 minutes ago, orion said:

Not really. A team that has say a Doyle or a Lambert and  you  then replaced them with a junior the crowd is going to go down by 150 to 300  and that  will cripple clubs .it's same the old story people putting up ideas but with no thinking about the money side .it's the same with take away the play offs and why don't we a play off cup !. Yet again your plan is thinking that the fans don't care who they watch .people have left because the standard of rider has dropped 

Not in the CL where the standard is as high as it’s ever been if not higher imo.

I agree that we have lost our stars to a point but most have retired and haven’t been replaced by the current crop we have.

[frigbo]

24 minutes ago, Hawk127 said:

 Being weekly is probably more a case of if you are lucky (more like,ly every three to four weeks) and with no real allegiance to the team because of guests and double ups supporters no longer recognise or have a local team. You have a bunch of riders who are mercenaries and take what they can get from any source. They are not interested in the punter just the pound in their pocket from the nights racing be this a fixed fee and/or points money.

This precisely sums up one of the main reasons I no longer go. The majority of riders in the PL couldn't care less about any aspect of the meeting, team or fans as long as their pocket is lined and wh*re themselves out to whoever is paying the next pound coin.

Edited August 10, 2018 by frigbo

[Hawk127]

33 minutes ago, frigbo said:

This precisely sums up one of the main reasons I no longer go. The majority of riders in the PL couldn't care less about any aspect of the meeting, team or fans as long as their pocket is lined and wh*re themselves out to whoever is paying the next pound coin.

I do not think you are alone. I long gave up on six man teams made up of guests, strays and anyone who could ride a bike and the fact that the powers that be felt I only needed to watch speedway every two or three weeks has been the final straw and my response is well screw you lot. I will save the cash and find something more interesting to follow. Too many of the people running clubs are so far removed from reality that they really need to get out and do everyone a favour and take up knitting because they are of no value to the well being of speedway 

[cityrebel]

2 hours ago, Spl77 said:

Disagree with the fall in standard causing the mass loss of support. Sure some have walked away because of the fall in standard but far more myself including myself have walked away because of micky mouse rules and shambolic way the sport is run. The old British League Was on its knees and down to 9 clubs in 1990 and all the top guys were still riding in the UK. The formation of one big league in 1995 again because of the top flight failing still saw the vast majority of top guys still here. Its probably only in the last 15 years that the majority of big names haven't competed here. At that point the crowds were far less than the late eighties. The decline has been in progress since the mid eighties long before the big boys left. 

The slow death started when Wembley was lost in 1981.

[steve roberts]

9 minutes ago, cityrebel said:

The slow death started when Wembley was lost in 1981.

...I would add the disappearance of speedway in the capitol generally which must have affected it's stature within the mass media outlets.

[Humphrey Appleby]

4 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...I would add the disappearance of speedway in the capitol generally which must have affected it's stature within the mass media outlets.

There was an indoor circuit in Washington DC...? 

[OGT]

It's a sad state of affairs when both sides in an NL match are using guests and RR.

An absolute shame 

[Shale Searcher]

Rider/Club/Fan/Club/Fan/Rider allegiance, just doesn't exist anymore in the UK.. 

[moxey63]

You need to build up a love for your team and a hatred of others. How can you do either of these when the club remains the same but the faces always change?

Edited August 12, 2018 by moxey63

[Stoke Potter]

On 8/10/2018 at 10:30 PM, steve roberts said:

...I would add the disappearance of speedway in the capitol generally which must have affected it's stature within the mass media outlets.

I'd also throw in the Sunday People race fixing scandal of 1984.  In reality the sport has never recovered.

[steve roberts]

25 minutes ago, Stoke Potter said:

I'd also throw in the Sunday People race fixing scandal of 1984.  In reality the sport has never recovered.

...Personally I always felt that it was a  bit of a Red Herring. In reality most fans realised that race 'manipulation' was always present going right back to probably when speedway first became known. 

'The Sunday People' always used to thrive on gutter/smutty journalism and/or articles and then by writing an article supposing to be investigatory journalism they then assumed that we should all sit up and take notice and take the paper seriously. Ivan Mauger once said when asked what he thought about the stories (and some were quite laughable) by one of their journalists he replied "Who f**king cares...nobody reads your paper!" 

I guess those not familiar with speedway having read the stories saw the sport as being flawed but then many sports before and since have had uncomplimentary articles published regarding many issues (drugs in particular) and don't appear to have been damaged to any great degree within the public eye.

[moxey63]

11 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...Personally I always felt that it was a  bit of a Red Herring. In reality most fans realised that race 'manipulation' was always present going right back to probably when speedway first became known. 

'The Sunday People' always used to thrive on gutter/smutty journalism and/or articles and then by writing an article supposing to be investigatory journalism they then assumed that we should all sit up and take notice and take the paper seriously. Ivan Mauger once said when asked what he thought about the stories (and some were quite laughable) by one of their journalists he replied "Who f**king cares...nobody reads your paper!" 

I guess those not familiar with speedway having read the stories saw the sport as being flawed but then many sports before and since have had uncomplimentary articles published regarding many issues (drugs in particular) and don't appear to have been damaged to any great degree within the public eye.

Remember playing pool in a pub the night the story featured on the national news - might have been BBC's 9 o'clock - and much of the pub stopped and watched. There was quite an interest. If it were now, most in the pub would be surprised speedway still exists.   

[Grachan]

11 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...Personally I always felt that it was a  bit of a Red Herring. In reality most fans realised that race 'manipulation' was always present going right back to probably when speedway first became known. 

'The Sunday People' always used to thrive on gutter/smutty journalism and/or articles and then by writing an article supposing to be investigatory journalism they then assumed that we should all sit up and take notice and take the paper seriously. Ivan Mauger once said when asked what he thought about the stories (and some were quite laughable) by one of their journalists he replied "Who f**king cares...nobody reads your paper!" 

I guess those not familiar with speedway having read the stories saw the sport as being flawed but then many sports before and since have had uncomplimentary articles published regarding many issues (drugs in particular) and don't appear to have been damaged to any great degree within the public eye.

I don't think the Sunday People had any bearing at all on the problems of speedway today. If any fans were lost because of it, that would have been in 1984, and crowds then were very healthy compared to now. The idea of Bruce Penhall winning the 1981 World Final because Jiri Stancl let him beat him was, as you say, pretty laughable anyway, and any speedway fan would have known that.

The sport was still doing fine after that.

[moxey63]

You've got to remember, speedway has had decades of thinking the sport is losing popularity. They have always tried new ideas to keep fans interested. Rider Control, maximum points limit, new competitions like the old League Cup in the 80s, and the change of race format that brought, ditching the popular 13 because they thought fans wanted something different when, at that time, they just wanted dirt on tracks (Phil Collins quit the BL for this reason).  They introduced riders' bonus points in the KOC to go towards team scores - but that idea lasted just the one year. Six man teams, eight-man teams... Tactical subs, Golden Doubles and six-lap nominate heats. Most of these ideas have been ditched, so they weren't the best. Promoters have tried, but would it have been best to stop all the tinkering?   

[Grachan]

3 minutes ago, moxey63 said:

You've got to remember, speedway has had decades of thinking the sport is losing popularity. They have always tried new ideas to keep fans interested. Rider Control, maximum points limit, new competitions like the old League Cup in the 80s, and the change of race format that brought, ditching the popular 13 because they thought fans wanted something different when, at that time, they just wanted dirt on tracks (Phil Collins quit the BL for this reason).  They introduced riders' bonus points in the KOC to go towards team scores - but that idea lasted just the one year. Six man teams, eight-man teams... Tactical subs, Golden Doubles and six-lap nominate heats. Most of these ideas have been ditched, so they weren't the best. Promoters have tried, but would it have been best to stop all the tinkering?   

The league cup was a decent season opener, and was probably brought in due to the number of clubs in the top flight reducing. I remember one year they went as far as effectively having two league campaigns - with all the clubs meeting each other in the league cup and then again in the league - and then having a final for the league cup at the end of the year. This was taking things too far really.

I don't see how increasing from 13 to 15 heats is a negative, although when they first did it they added a second reserve race. The format now is better, although the protected heats format was the worst. The nominated riders heats at the end is a good addition.

Bonus points in the KO Cup? I don't remember that. Terrible idea. As was the TR and the Golden Double. The TR was the most stupid introduction of all. They should never have got rid of the old tac subs really, as this was a major tactical discussion point throughout the meeting. When they did that, they effectively changed the entire sport and what it's all about. But, if they brought it back now, people would probably be outraged at how unfair it is to the winning side.

[moxey63]

25 minutes ago, Grachan said:

The league cup was a decent season opener, and was probably brought in due to the number of clubs in the top flight reducing. I remember one year they went as far as effectively having two league campaigns - with all the clubs meeting each other in the league cup and then again in the league - and then having a final for the league cup at the end of the year. This was taking things too far really.

I don't see how increasing from 13 to 15 heats is a negative, although when they first did it they added a second reserve race. The format now is better, although the protected heats format was the worst. The nominated riders heats at the end is a good addition.

Bonus points in the KO Cup? I don't remember that. Terrible idea. As was the TR and the Golden Double. The TR was the most stupid introduction of all. They should never have got rid of the old tac subs really, as this was a major tactical discussion point throughout the meeting. When they did that, they effectively changed the entire sport and what it's all about. But, if they brought it back now, people would probably be outraged at how unfair it is to the winning side.

Riders' bonus points were incorporated into team scores in the 1995 KO Cup.

The League Cup was a good competition lasting six years. To have the LC  league matches early in the season and the final in October was laughable. 

[GWC]

Why were fixed gate positions brought in?

With the TS and choice of gates if you were 6 points behind teams had better options.

[steve roberts]

1 hour ago, moxey63 said:

Riders' bonus points were incorporated into team scores in the 1995 KO Cup.

The League Cup was a good competition lasting six years. To have the LC  league matches early in the season and the final in October was laughable. 

The League Cup was a good competition in my opinion also...except some teams used it to manipulate their averages before the league campaign started. Oxford headed the League Cup table in 1987 but suffered once the league started...and I agree, why was final held during October?  Oxford missed out on a clean sweep of trophies during 1986 because they ran out of dates and the weather closed in...although they morally won in my view having done the hard work at Cradley having drawn and won in the KO Cup and League Cup first legs!

Edited August 13, 2018 by steve roberts

[steve roberts]

10 minutes ago, GWC said:

Why were fixed gate positions brought in?

With the TS and choice of gates if you were 6 points behind teams had better options.

...never like fixed gates. Took away a certain amount of tactical ploy. It was also a bit of a myth that top riders always took the best gate because when one reads accounts and/or interviews it wasn't always the case as many would have us believe.

Edited August 13, 2018 by steve roberts