The continuing decline of Speedway

[orion]

2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...your comparison with Play Offs was primarily about football. Totally different scenario. Football will always be successful due to the massive media attention it receives and constant brainwashing. Whatever speedway comes up with it will never be able to compete on equal terms.

Interesting your comment about rule changes but speedway ran along quite successfully with little manipulation and/or changes to the rule book. The constant changing of race formula, points limits etc etc during the late eighties was one of many factors that caused the gradual decline of the sport. It's obvious that changes haven't brought the necessary crowds back to speedway despite suggesting that times have changed and speedway needs to move on.

Personally I feel that the sport has reached a level that is unsustainable and all the tweaking will not alter that.

The only person who keeps saying about football is you Ive not said about football once .I said every other sport that has play offs ..maybe the nasty media have brain washed them about all these other sports that have play offs that fans love as well. It's pretty clear that once the UK was not the be all and end all of world speedway things were never goingvto be the same hence why things that worked in the golden era are not going to work now .

[orion]

33 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

That isn't how it was in the pre play off days. Yes, fans wanted to finish top of the league but with a league of 16 - 19 teams that wasn't the only interest just as it isn't now in the football PL. Interest was retained because it was an achievement to finish in the top 3, because you wanted your team to finish higher than your local rivals or the teams you disliked or because you wanted to avoid the wooden spoon. Just as in the football PL you had an expectation for your team, which wasn't necessarily that they would finish top or thereabouts and the interest was in watching to see if they could achieve your expectation or hopefully, exceed it. 

With play offs the interest isn't there until about this time of year when the real fight for a play off place begins. In fact, as Mark Lemon has highlighted, there is an argument not to do well in the earlier part of the season to drop below the team building total and give yourself opportunities to replace original team members with better riders at the business end. Fans know that meetings in the first half of the season are often meaningless and some pick and choose or wait until they become more important before spending their hard earned money. People will always point to the attendance for the play offs as the justification for them. Those attendances are not what they were and what we need to be looking at is the attendance figures over the season not a few meetings at the end. If we hope to attract people to the sport we have to ensure that every meeting or, at least, as many as possible have relevance and importance. If they don't matter many fans won't be bothered about attending.

Yet again  the modern fan would not care if his team came 3rd if There were no play offs .time has moved on .as I said before play offs give most teams something race for  all season .if Poole say say have much bette team r than anyone else at go clear by June it would mean no else would have anything to race for and the season would be over and the modern fan would not turn up .The bottom line is play offs are a massive success in all sports ,so for oaps mainly to say they are a big reason why fans don't come to UK speedway anymore  is insane .

[steve roberts]

13 minutes ago, orion said:

The only person who keeps saying about football is you Ive not said about football once .I said every other sport that has play offs ..maybe the nasty media have brain washed them about all these other sports that have play offs that fans love as well. It's pretty clear that once the UK was not the be all and end all of world speedway things were never goingvto be the same hence why things that worked in the golden era are not going to work now .

...yes my comment was based on your initial comment about Play-Offs within other sports (to which football falls within) to which I, and others, made the comparison that in football (and apparently some other sports) teams that finish top of their respected leagues are crowned champions. Play-Offs are there to formalise promotion and regulation issues. Speedway set a different agenda. I wasn't specifically questioning the popularity of same just that Play-Offs constitute different agendas in other sports and if that attracts 'Joe Public' so be it but speedway has far greater issues within the bigger picture requiring more than tweaking rules and race formulas etc.

As regards the 'so called' Golden Era speedway pretty well survived...it's not until things were messed around with to bring it supposedly 'up to date' and attract those missing fans (late 1980's if you like?) that it lost it's way and as I said with the introduction of the GPs speedway in this country was always going to suffer and no longer was  the 'hot bed' that it once was for better or worse...down to one's own personal opinion and/or views of course.

[yahoho]

3 hours ago, winstoncigar said:

You've hit the nail on the head. Can you seriously imagine young fans standing on the terraces filling in programs the way we used to (still do)? They want electronic timing, fastest laps, big screen replays, modern looking bikes, manufacturer imputs etc etc

Now this certainly got me thinking - it may not be popular but I think its definitely something that is overlooked a lot by people. Everyone here has an interest in speedway and understands the inner workings to an extent. Because of this, we are all looking deep into the technical details of the sport, which is not where the casual viewer is attracted.

Fundamentally, to a casual observer, there are 4 bikes on a track going round in a circle. Now we can change the tactical rule, double points, guest bookings, gate positions, doubling up etc etc and it will make zero difference to what the casual observer sees. There will still be 4 bikes sliding round a track. It's only us "committed supporters" that will notice, and we will just moan about something else instead. Its the same in every walk of life.

Now I have become more of a causal supporter these days, I just dont have the time. When I do get visit a track for a meeting, I often pass on a programme and take my seat / position somewhere in the stand / terraces and hover about a bit until something happens on track. I can't understand the tannoy systems (either too echoey / quiet / loud) - but this is a general tanoy system thing, not just poor speedway tracks tanoys - they just arent a great way of getting information over. I see bikes to the right in a fenced off area, this must be the pits - OK got it! Then there is a track - OK thats where they race, got it! - Then what? 4 blokes come out in different helmet colours that I probably havent even noticed and then they race around - 4 laps a race, OK - Got it!

45 minutes later and 8 races down and they are coming out again - are these the same people? different people? who is winning? what is the score? how many races are left? what team am I supporting? are they teams? are they 4 teams? what are points? how do points work?

When I have taken someone along for the first time, these are the questions I get asked all the time and spend half the meeting trying to explain - its not difficult, but speedway makes itself that way!

A simple scoreboard on the center green can answer most of these questions without them having to ask. Display the thing just like the programme. Riders, Teams, Heats and Helmet colours - just like the programme.

Add in a 2 minute timer so people understand what that is about. Suddenly a casual viewer who has turned up randomly to see what all the noise actually is every week, has a vague understanding of what is actually happening, when and why.

[steve roberts]

29 minutes ago, orion said:

Yet again  the modern fan would not care if his team came 3rd if There were no play offs .time has moved on .as I said before play offs give most teams something race for  all season .if Poole say say have much bette team r than anyone else at go clear by June it would mean no else would have anything to race for and the season would be over and the modern fan would not turn up .The bottom line is play offs are a massive success in all sports ,so for oaps mainly to say they are a big reason why fans don't come to UK speedway anymore  is insane .

...that's  the problem. There just aren't enough 'modern fans' and speedway has greater more pressing issues if it wishes to attract younger fans. Cutting rider's costs would be a step in the right direction but that would ultimately mean the 'stars' looking elsewhere to ride which may not be a bad thing. Perhaps going semi-amateur maybe the way forward but it's pure conjecture...question of what people now expect within any form of entertainment. 

Yes Play-Offs are one aspect but there's more to it than that regarding speedway's future...not sure why you keep bringing up oaps into the discussion? I certainly don't qualify.

I don't have any answers (there are many better qualified than me on the forum) but sadly neither do the BSPA and/or the controlling authorities  by all accounts judging by the lack of apathy on the terraces based on attendance levels.

Edited August 7, 2018 by steve roberts

[Grachan]

1 minute ago, yahoho said:

Now this certainly got me thinking - it may not be popular but I think its definitely something that is overlooked a lot by people. Everyone here has an interest in speedway and understands the inner workings to an extent. Because of this, we are all looking deep into the technical details of the sport, which is not where the casual viewer is attracted.

Fundamentally, to a casual observer, there are 4 bikes on a track going round in a circle. Now we can change the tactical rule, double points, guest bookings, gate positions, doubling up etc etc and it will make zero difference to what the casual observer sees. There will still be 4 bikes sliding round a track. It's only us "committed supporters" that will notice, and we will just moan about something else instead. Its the same in every walk of life.

Now I have become more of a causal supporter these days, I just dont have the time. When I do get visit a track for a meeting, I often pass on a programme and take my seat / position somewhere in the stand / terraces and hover about a bit until something happens on track. I can't understand the tannoy systems (either too echoey / quiet / loud) - but this is a general tanoy system thing, not just poor speedway tracks tanoys - they just arent a great way of getting information over. I see bikes to the right in a fenced off area, this must be the pits - OK got it! Then there is a track - OK thats where they race, got it! - Then what? 4 blokes come out in different helmet colours that I probably havent even noticed and then they race around - 4 laps a race, OK - Got it!

45 minutes later and 8 races down and they are coming out again - are these the same people? different people? who is winning? what is the score? how many races are left? what team am I supporting? are they teams? are they 4 teams? what are points? how do points work?

When I have taken someone along for the first time, these are the questions I get asked all the time and spend half the meeting trying to explain - its not difficult, but speedway makes itself that way!

A simple scoreboard on the center green can answer most of these questions without them having to ask. Display the thing just like the programme. Riders, Teams, Heats and Helmet colours - just like the programme.

Add in a 2 minute timer so people understand what that is about. Suddenly a casual viewer who has turned up randomly to see what all the noise actually is every week, has a vague understanding of what is actually happening, when and why.

I wouldn't say it even needs a programme type scoreboard. Just a scoreboard.

Home and away and how many points they have. This would make so much difference in making it look like a team sport. I think they shy away from this as they think they will lose programme sales, but I think it is essential to have this permanently on display.

Having the 2 minute countdown on there is a nice idea though.

[orion]

27 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...yes my comment was based on your initial comment about Play-Offs within other sports (to which football falls within) to which I, and others, made the comparison that in football (and apparently some other sports) teams that finish top of their respected leagues are crowned champions. Play-Offs are there to formalise promotion and regulation issues. Speedway set a different agenda. I wasn't specifically questioning the popularity of same just that Play-Offs constitute different agendas in other sports and if that attracts 'Joe Public' so be it but speedway has far greater issues within the bigger picture requiring more than tweaking rules and race formulas etc.

As regards the 'so called' Golden Era speedway pretty well survived...it's not until things were messed around with to bring it supposedly 'up to date' and attract those missing fans (late 1980's if you like?) that it lost it's way and as I said with the introduction of the GPs speedway in this country was always going to suffer and no longer was  the 'hot bed' that it once was for better or worse...down to one's own personal opinion and/or views of course.

It had to change as the uk was not the number one in speedway anymore .They could just have 7 race days all the riders etc etc anymore .Yet again speedway  does not have his  own agenda when it comes to play offs .plenty have the same rules and the champions are chosen by this method and are packed with fans. how come rugby fans don't pick and choose the matches at the  start of the season?.No doubt another only in speedway fan rule .

[moxey63]

We should just admit it. We fall for the sport because we love it. The novelty then wears off. We then decide there are things about it we don't like and want our own ideas implementing and don't like any new idea. We also think it could be run better and want people who have put their money in to take our ideas on board. When they don't, we gradually stop attending as we don't like most new ideas. But it is simple... we never feel the same way about speedway as we did in our initial years and always want to change it. Bit like being married really.

Edited August 7, 2018 by moxey63

[ouch]

When your clientele is old farts, of course you’re going to attempt to bring in a younger crowd. What you don’t do is implement a system (or systems) that helps drive these old farts away whilst simultaneously failing to attract newbies. 

[mikebv]

Get a successful GB Team and the media profile will increase. Rugby Union and Cricket latched onto that years ago to compete with a Football obsessed media and population..

When GB ruled the roost in Speedway, Terrestrial TV and the Newspapers were interested...

Then along came all the Scandinavians and Americans who we trained and Terrestrial TV and Newspapers no longer wanted to cover something without the 'feel good factor' that successful National Teams bring..

Do that and the domestic scene will naturally start to see benefits (like it has done previously) through its association. (Ideally with the most recognised British lads riding over here!)..

Have some kind of reward for the League Winners to make that competition relevant. Do this by paying 'Team Prize Money' each meeting rather than individual points money and have a Trophy at the end of the season for the team that tops the Leagues. (You can still divide up the cash individually 'off camera' as per each riders agreement..)

Then have the play offs..

If, as now,  the play offs are 'all important' why bother attending matches before that when they are nothing more than a warm up for the main event..?

To encourage regular attendance flog discount tickets at each meeting for the next two/three/four matches etc, it is quite stark who 'irregular' the 'regulars' can be...

Simply,  get those who do actually know about the sport and do attend, to attend more...!

Don't bother with season tickets as far too restrictive to encourage 'special offers' through the season..

And the 'die hards' will come anyway. ..

Ride on the best night for your business with riders committed to putting GB first..

And No 'Mickey Mouse' "arr but this is Speedway" make it up as you go along rules. ..

(Poland and Sweden never use "arr but this is Speedway" to justify nonsense administration do they?)..

It looks like GB actually now have a 'proper plan' led by people with clear vision with, most importantly, Woffy well on board, so maybe,  just maybe,  there is a small light at the end of that long tunnel?

Edited August 7, 2018 by mikebv

[Hawk127]

It does seem that some of the debate revolves around the fans/supporters. Older fans were brought up on a diet of mixed racing, league, cup, individual meetings 4TT etc and enjoyed the weekly fix which also achieved the desired aim of riders in having more track time. Today many will not turn up / support anything other than league meetings. That is fine and a choice we all make

However with fewer clubs not always having their preferred choice of racing night and having to fight over a dwindling pool of riders given the pull of European clubs, it does make it difficult to get a settled 1 to 7 in any BL club with regular weekly racing particular when the customer base only want one form of meeting and will not turn out in decent enough numbers to support/following speedway racing except a league meeting. Up and coming riders have little chance of breaking in when the track time is so scarce. Perhaps the decline is not just due to the product and all the associated issues, it may well be that the punter has played a major part in the decline with their choices. Other theories will do the rounds as to who or what is wrong and lots of ideas on here have merit but perhaps the supporters need to look inwardly and think would I run a speedway team with such a fickle client base.

[Ghosty]

11 minutes ago, ouch said:

When your clientele is old farts, of course you’re going to attempt to bring in a younger crowd. What you don’t do is implement a system (or systems) that helps drive these old farts away whilst simultaneously failing to attract newbies. 

Agree 100% with you, in my opinion the biggest mistake in today's speedway are the play off's they have done more damage to speedway than anything else. They should be scraped & instead run an end of season K.O.C. one for the top half & one for the bottom half of the leagues. BUT NO wholesale team changes allowed.

[DC2]

 

Just a small thing, but how about allowing each team two proper practice heats before the match starts?

That would help with set ups, identify any track problems and allow the shale to move out a little for better racing.

 

[orion]

25 minutes ago, Ghosty said:

Agree 100% with you, in my opinion the biggest mistake in today's speedway are the play off's they have done more damage to speedway than anything else. They should be scraped & instead run an end of season K.O.C. one for the top half & one for the bottom half of the leagues. BUT NO wholesale team changes allowed.

The best idea ive seen ...I can see it now Leics v Wolves the winner winning the bottom of the table  ko cup ..should pack them in .maybe they could have in on  pay for view ?

[Thornaby48]

I have never understood why we have play offs, just copying football I think. Why not, at the end of the season have the KO cup with the top 4 teams automatically going into the quarter finals to meet the 4 surviving teams from a series of qualifying ko rounds. The top 4 would then be drawn against the other 4 and not each other until the semis.

 

[Big Al]

4 hours ago, Aces51 said:

That isn't how it was in the pre play off days. Yes, fans wanted to finish top of the league but with a league of 16 - 19 teams that wasn't the only interest just as it isn't now in the football PL. Interest was retained because it was an achievement to finish in the top 3, because you wanted your team to finish higher than your local rivals or the teams you disliked or because you wanted to avoid the wooden spoon. Just as in the football PL you had an expectation for your team, which wasn't necessarily that they would finish top or thereabouts and the interest was in watching to see if they could achieve your expectation or hopefully, exceed it. 

With play offs the interest isn't there until about this time of year when the real fight for a play off place begins. In fact, as Mark Lemon has highlighted, there is an argument not to do well in the earlier part of the season to drop below the team building total and give yourself opportunities to replace original team members with better riders at the business end. Fans know that meetings in the first half of the season are often meaningless and some pick and choose or wait until they become more important before spending their hard earned money. People will always point to the attendance for the play offs as the justification for them. Those attendances are not what they were and what we need to be looking at is the attendance figures over the season not a few meetings at the end. If we hope to attract people to the sport we have to ensure that every meeting or, at least, as many as possible have relevance and importance. If they don't matter many fans won't be bothered about attending.

The problems with attendances must be more acute during March to May because of weather and football, live or on TV. And if the race night is also wrong, the problem just gets compounded. So would a heavily discounted mini season-ticket covering those months be an answer, then have a more premium-price season ticket to cover June to September but include family concessions for the holders? Obviously the product needs to be got right to match, i.e. run the matches quick in the early season, and keep down the dust during the premium months.

[orion]

9 minutes ago, Thornaby48 said:

I have never understood why we have play offs, just copying football I think. Why not, at the end of the season have the KO cup with the top 4 teams automatically going into the quarter finals to meet the 4 surviving teams from a series of qualifying ko rounds. The top 4 would then be drawn against the other 4 and not each other until the semis.

 

Nearly all sports have play offs not just football .

[Aces51]

2 hours ago, orion said:

Yet again  the modern fan would not care if his team came 3rd if There were no play offs .time has moved on .as I said before play offs give most teams something race for  all season .if Poole say say have much bette team r than anyone else at go clear by June it would mean no else would have anything to race for and the season would be over and the modern fan would not turn up .The bottom line is play offs are a massive success in all sports ,so for oaps mainly to say they are a big reason why fans don't come to UK speedway anymore  is insane .

The evidence of the Football PL shows you are wrong about modern fans. No play offs and not only do supporters turn up in huge numbers but the vast majority of fans know that their club has virtually no chance of winning the league or finishing in the top 3. They realise even before the season starts that success for them is finishing mid table or, avoiding relegation and that is sufficient to keep them interested and turning up to matches. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Aces51

[orion]

22 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

The evidence of the Football PL shows you are wrong about modern fans. No play offs and not only do supporters turn up in huge numbers but the vast majority of fans know that their club has virtually no chance of winning the league or finishing in the top 3. They realise even before the season starts that success for them is finishing mid table or, avoiding relegation and that is sufficient to keep them interested and turning up to matches. 

What you don't understand is  that  the pl  has champions league spots and  teams can go down as well as  Europa league spots  and massive prize money for each place  .so plenty for teams to play for and fans to watch .so no need for play offs as every game has something riding on it

plus the crowds are massive as they have sold so many seasons tickets before the start of the season ..now you tell me what speedway got to race for with no play offs ? Nothing bar the league title  that could be over before you know it.

Edited August 7, 2018 by orion

[Grachan]

How about having the KO Cup at the end of the year. Draw based on league position. Top v Bottom, Second v Second from bottom and so on. And rename it "The Play Offs".

Winners of the league are League Champions. Play off winners are "British Champions".

Then you have League Champs. You have Play Off/British Champs. Everyone is happy. Because Play Offs/British Champions sound important. KO Cup doesn't. Nobody will notice it's the same thing.