Belle Vue V Kings Lynn Stars 21st May 2018

[GregoryM]

On 18/05/2018 at 2:28 PM, mikebv said:

I too will be giving this farce a miss...

However...

On here and various other forums we will get several contributors to the threads discussing whom are the best guests...

Several will comment that "it will still be good racing"....

And come the result,  several will comment on how it was either a good result or a bad one, as if it was an actual bona fide sporting contest between two professional sports teams vying for a National Title..

Sometimes, Speedway fans really do get the operating model (and sport) they deserve...

Spot on mikebv.

I made a comment in a post back in August 2015 that I thought the league table was a 'mysterious work of fiction'. When asked 'why?' I wrote this below, and still some other contributors didn't seem to accept the points I was making. Thankfully the Double Points Tac Ride has now gone, but I do think many speedway fans really can't see the wood for the trees.  

I will admit I'll still be there tomorrow night but only because it is at the NSS. I do enjoy it but I now treat each match as an individual night of entertainment, and all thoughts of it being a bona fide league competition were dispelled in my mind a long time ago. Had we still been at the Dog Track then I definitely wouldn't be there.

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Posted August 20, 2015

On 14/08/2015 at 6:43 PM, BWitcher said:

 

Why?

 

Sorry, been away for a few days – but you ask why the league table is ‘a work of mysterious fiction’.

 

FICTION

1. GUESTS

In modern day speedway our teams are, for whatever reason, increasingly NOT racing against their opponents’ declared 1-7s, with guests being employed in numerous matches week-in, week-out. Infact, whenever there is a match without any guests and / or R/R it is noted as being somewhat remarkable.

 

Last night’s postponed match at Belle Vue, for example, was set to be the Aces 13^th home Elite League match of the season. Had it gone ahead, the 13 matches would have seen the opponents arrive at Kirky Lane with 12 guests and 2 operating R/R.

 

In another example, in the four Belle Vue / Lakeside matches this season there were 12 guests used and 2 R/Rs!!

 

What makes the situation look even sillier with guests is that you might see a particular rider at your track guesting for an opponent, but is then absent when his own team visits. Or your own team has a rider missing at an away track, but then he appears at that track guesting for someone else.

 

The choice of guests is, quite understandably, made on a ‘horse-for-courses’ basis wherever possible and a team may well have a guest rider in its line-up at a particular track where he performs considerably better than the rider he’s replaced.

 

So if the ‘real’ Team A isn’t taking on the ‘real’ Team B the result can hardly be ‘real’ and so have little credibility. The result is likely to bear no resemblance when teams are full of guests to what it would have been with their own riders - so the result becomes a work of fiction of sorts.

 

2. DOUBLE POINTS TACTICAL RIDE RULE

Yes here we are again - but if a team ‘wins’ 47-46 by virtue of using this rule then in reality out on the track they’ve actually lost 44-46. What is worse is that if their opponents are the home team, they’re considered to have ‘lost’ and get no match points at all - despite scoring a real match winning total of 46 points out on the track. Absolutely ridiculous!!!! And yet more fiction.

 

MYSTERIOUS

The mystery is how supporters continue to have the patience to put up with it? It certainly isn’t doing any favours in attracting new supporters. Over the years I’ve taken several ‘first-timers’ to speedway and, for the most part, they’ve enjoyed the spectacle. Get onto explaining the rules and answering their questions about team line-ups and they soon lose interest. I took a couple to a double header at Belle Vue last season (I think it was last season) and two riders were riding as guests for one team in the first match and then for their own team in the second – the couple were very confused to say the least and just laughed in my face when I explained things to them. ‘How on earth can you take speedway seriously’ they asked. I really didn’t have an answer.

 

Anyhow, I’ll continue to enjoy speedway match by match and try to put out of my mind just how a team has been cobbled together for that particular night.

 

It's not something to agree or disagree on, it's not opinion. The current guest / double points tactical ride systems make the league table a 'mysterious work of fiction'. No if's or buts about it.

　

[Greg]

This stuff gets better and better every week .

[Aces51]

It's, Brady Kurtz, Josh G and Jason Garrity. Let's hope that Mark Lemon can get more out of the Poole riders than Middlo has this season. If not we could be in trouble. Garrity is in good form so hopefully he can get a decent score.

[kelvinht]

Stars press release says klindt instead of garrity.

Not ideal, but least missing riders are due to other commitments on the continent and not another UK team, which makes it easier to explain to Joe  public and don't sound quite so stupid. Unfortunately having gone for Wednesday instead of Thursday it limits teams for alternative nights with Danes in particular in their teams. Step in the right direction...maybe they'll get it right next season. 

Be interesting to see what happens come September when teams still have matches to fit in. Wonder what plan B is...

[WalterPlinge]

15 minutes ago, kelvinht said:

Stars press release says klindt instead of garrity.

 

Stars have cocked up their press release then.     It's Kurtz, Grajczonek and Garrity as has already been said.

[g13webb]

 From the racing I've seen from and at the NSS , riders performances don't always coincide with their form at that time,   so  it could be that the 3 guest  riders will put up a decent effort and score sufficient points to make it interesting.   No disputing Fricke and Cook's class, but they haven't been hitting those big numbers we know they are capable of,  so probably,  this might just be a special night when those guests contribute to a close competitive meeting  when the result is in doubt until the end....

We can but hope...

[Bald Bloke]

2 hours ago, Aces51 said:

It's, Brady Kurtz, Josh G and Jason Garrity. Let's hope that Mark Lemon can get more out of the Poole riders than Middlo has this season. If not we could be in trouble. Garrity is in good form so hopefully he can get a decent score.

I doubt it. Averages ? if guest meetings count..

Edited May 20, 2018 by Bald Bloke

[Daniel Smith]

38 minutes ago, Bald Bloke said:

I doubt it. Averages ? if guest meetings count..

Guesting doesn't count towards averages 

[Bald Bloke]

5 minutes ago, Daniel Smith said:

Guesting doesn't count towards averages 

Will be interesting to see how the Poole guys go in that case. On the other side, are Poole more worried about having BV in a play off place than Lynn ? Maybe I think to much 

[Aces51]

36 minutes ago, g13webb said:

 From the racing I've seen from and at the NSS , riders performances don't always coincide with their form at that time,   so  it could be that the 3 guest  riders will put up a decent effort and score sufficient points to make it interesting.   No disputing Fricke and Cook's class, but they haven't been hitting those big numbers we know they are capable of,  so probably,  this might just be a special night when those guests contribute to a close competitive meeting  when the result is in doubt until the end....

We can but hope...

Cook is averaging 8.44 with bonus points at home this season and Fricke 8.19 so we'll have something to compare with Kurtz and JG 's scores. Hopefully, the racing will be up to the usual standard and we'll have an enjoyable meeting despite having only 4 of our own team.

I'm looking forward to seeing Lambert, he didn't race at the NSS last year but seems to be on good form and making good starts so I'm expecting him to do well.

[Bagpuss]

While the three guests won't be as strong as the three  riders they are replacing they are decent stand ins. I think Lynn will do very, very well to get anything or of this.

[Bald Bloke]

3 minutes ago, Bagpuss said:

While the three guests won't be as strong as the three  riders they are replacing they are decent stand ins. I think Lynn will do very, very well to get anything or of this.

I'd be happy with a point

[mikec]

Lemo hinted at the end of match press conference last Monday that using RR/guest for Steve Worrall might not continue to be the preferred option for too much longer. Big opportunity for Garrity tomorrow night to stake a claim for that spot. 

[Bald Bloke]

Hope the Brit does well 

[GregoryM]

Was in Blackpool yesterday and got chatting in a pub with a guy wearing a Glasgow Tigers T-Shirt. He was on holiday with a group of friends and I asked him if he was going to have a ride to Manchester tonight to take in the Aces v King's Lynn match.

'Don't you mean Aces Select v King's Lynn?' he laughed. He went on to say 'I'd seen there was a rearranged match at Belle Vue for this week and I discussed with my friends (not usual speedway goers) if we should go. There are 8 of us and the other 7 seemed pretty keen. But when I then saw that Cook & Fricke were missing and three guests were in place I thought forget it. How could I properly explain to the others about why one team had three riders in it from three other clubs? It would take all day and they already think speedway is a bit mickey mouse anyway from what they've heard from me over the years. So no we won't be going, but defo would have done had it been a full Aces team (even with R/R for Worrall). With getting in, progs and some drinks that's at least £200 - £225 they could have had tonight that they won't be getting now'.

Wonder if I forwarded this to the BSPA they'd even be bothered reading it?

 

[Gunner85]

3 minutes ago, GregoryM said:

Was in Blackpool yesterday and got chatting in a pub with a guy wearing a Glasgow Tigers T-Shirt. He was on holiday with a group of friends and I asked him if he was going to have a ride to Manchester tonight to take in the Aces v King's Lynn match.

'Don't you mean Aces Select v King's Lynn?' he laughed. He went on to say 'I'd seen there was a rearranged match at Belle Vue for this week and I discussed with my friends (not usual speedway goers) if we should go. There are 8 of us and the other 7 seemed pretty keen. But when I then saw that Cook & Fricke were missing and three guests were in place I thought forget it. How could I properly explain to the others about why one team had three riders in it from three other clubs? It would take all day and they already think speedway is a bit mickey mouse anyway from what they've heard from me over the years. So no we won't be going, but defo would have done had it been a full Aces team (even with R/R for Worrall). With getting in, progs and some drinks that's at least £200 - £225 they could have had tonight that they won't be getting now'.

Wonder if I forwarded this to the BSPA they'd even be bothered reading it?

 

They might read it...but high probability that they would ignore the content.

[ouch]

If it needs explaining, don’t. Just go along and enjoy the racing. 

Would you rather watch 15 heats of gate and go with two full teams or watch several top draw races where seven heats have guests in due to riders riding elsewhere?

BTW when selling your house don’t spend all your time discussing its faults as you will drive the price down. 

[tellboy]

25 minutes ago, GregoryM said:

Was in Blackpool yesterday and got chatting in a pub with a guy wearing a Glasgow Tigers T-Shirt. He was on holiday with a group of friends and I asked him if he was going to have a ride to Manchester tonight to take in the Aces v King's Lynn match.

'Don't you mean Aces Select v King's Lynn?' he laughed. He went on to say 'I'd seen there was a rearranged match at Belle Vue for this week and I discussed with my friends (not usual speedway goers) if we should go. There are 8 of us and the other 7 seemed pretty keen. But when I then saw that Cook & Fricke were missing and three guests were in place I thought forget it. How could I properly explain to the others about why one team had three riders in it from three other clubs? It would take all day and they already think speedway is a bit mickey mouse anyway from what they've heard from me over the years. So no we won't be going, but defo would have done had it been a full Aces team (even with R/R for Worrall). With getting in, progs and some drinks that's at least £200 - £225 they could have had tonight that they won't be getting now'.

Wonder if I forwarded this to the BSPA they'd even be bothered reading it?

 

If i was to take a group of non-speedway people to speedway,i wouldn't even start to explain the rules etc,or these riders don't actually ride for them etc they don't need to know this especially for their first meeting.I would just let them see what speedway is about first and foremost and that's the actual racing.If they enjoy the racing that's half the battle done.And lets be honest Belle Vue is the place to take them to get good racing.

[GregoryM]

9 minutes ago, tellboy said:

If i was to take a group of non-speedway people to speedway,i wouldn't even start to explain the rules etc,or these riders don't actually ride for them etc they don't need to know this especially for their first meeting.I would just let them see what speedway is about first and foremost and that's the actual racing.If they enjoy the racing that's half the battle done.And lets be honest Belle Vue is the place to take them to get good racing.

I actually couldn't agree with you more, and I did discuss this with my 'new Glasgow Tigers friend'. Since the NSS has been open I myself have taken several 'first-timers' with mixed results. One example of my own though is that rules do eventually crop up. I took one friend who loved it and immediately wanted to go again. In his first match it was a full 7 v 7, but in the second visit there were guests and, because the centre green presenter started talking about 'guests', my friend wanted to know more. It did put him off a bit, but he has continued to go - and he accepts that injuries will often mean guests. He has though read the background behind tonight's rearranged fixture and has texted me to say I won't see him there tonight.

[waytogo28]

1 hour ago, Gunner85 said:

They might read it...but high probability that they would ignore the content.

They will be Much To Busy working on Plan B for this season and the changes they are already working on for 2019. How fortunate we are that they care about the sport so much.